Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dustin Williams on July 1, 2011 at 12:44am

Oh, and if we're doing circumcision to avoid potential future problems, then why not do tonsillectomies and appendectomies as preventative measures for children?

Permalink Reply by Alice on July 1, 2011 at 2:00am

I think at 5% it's not a high chance - and they do loose sensitivity and the glide mechanism of the penis. Obviously your husband was one of the unfortunate 5% who was in pain during sex and having erections with a foreskin. As is your son. It's obviously a subject that is important to you personally. But 5% isn't a high risk. It's not even half way for risk. I don't think it's the norm to circumcise in Australia or Europe. Which means that the 95% can have their foreskin in tack. Unfortunately there are always going to be those who don't have it perfect, we are none of us perfect.

Permalink Reply by Alice on July 1, 2011 at 1:43am

I know there are times when it is necessary but majority of the time it isn't necessary.  Why cut off all foreskins for the sake of less than 10% who will benefit?  Perhaps it's a family trait also?  Like narrow hips.  I don't know the exact figures but it works for the majority of men in Europe to have a foreskin.  Americans seem obsessed with cutting them off - with no other reason that they want their son to look like dad.  It's the same argument with giving birth - some women and babies lives are threatened in labour so we'll give everyone an elected c section.

Permalink Reply by Dustin Williams on July 1, 2011 at 2:01am

I asked my mom a few months ago about why she had me circumcised. She had absolutely no reason for it. It's just what everybody did. The culturally accepted norm. That's a very poor reason to chop off part of a person's genitals.

Permalink Reply by Atheist Andrea on July 1, 2011 at 10:26pm

Thank you, Dunn, for taking the time to write this and share your experiences. I struggle with the decision to have my son circumcised a year ago. I did so because I remember girls discussing which boys weren't circumcised in High School and the laughs they gave. I did not want other partners thinking my son was "dirty" as I felt these boys were being portrayed.

Permalink Reply by Alice on July 1, 2011 at 11:47pm

I didn't realise that there was such irrational social prejudice on this subject.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on July 2, 2011 at 12:37am

It's kind of fucked up, on the subject, here in America ... as hard as that may be to believe.

Permalink Reply by Dustin Williams on July 1, 2011 at 12:42am

I did some research on the topic a few months back and what I found is that circumcision was unheard of in the English speaking world outside of Jewish and Muslim communities until the late 19th century. It's first proponent was Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (brother of the founder of the Kellogg company and the developer of their first cereal) an early Seventh-day Adventist health reformer (later kicked out of the church) who promoted it, not for good health, but to discourage masturbation.

It didn't spread very fast, but once Germ Theory came around it exploded based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how germs spread and the importance of good hygiene.

Permalink Reply by Alice on July 1, 2011 at 2:01am

We have a saying here in Australia - if it ain't broke, don't fix it

Permalink Reply by Nealie Barker on July 1, 2011 at 3:48am

Dunn - I appreciate the point you are making regarding the requirement for informed decision making. However let me clarify, you are not advocating circumcision as a publicly funded preventative treatment for phimosis are you? I am also confused as to how you could justify the individual choice of preventative surgery for phimosis + other uncircumcised related health issues. All the reading I have done to date on this topic points quite clearly to the idea that circumcision does not meet the criteria for a public intervention/screening programme. This means the prevalence, cost and personal cost (ie; the trauma you speak of, which I have also witnessed firsthand) of the condition does not justify population wide circumcision. Naturally there are individual cases (alluded to earlier in this discussion) where the scales are tipped in favour of the procedure. You mention however, your sons case is not one of these. Therefore I wonder why you say you'd choose differently when the research just doesn't support such a decision at both a population level and an individual level (of a non high risk individual). I think I might have missed something, I'll go back and re-read your comments.

 

Permalink Reply by Nealie Barker on July 1, 2011 at 4:18am

 

Sorry can't get the Edit function to work - I wanted to address this comment specifically.

 

"New born babies do not have grown penises and foreskins; they don't get erections.  It doesn't take them weeks to heal".

 

Firstly, in the interests of accuracy, newborn babies certainly do have erections. Secondly, I think it's important that we be careful about attempting to marginalised the 'problems' (it's hard to classify them as specifically morbidity or mortality etc) associated with infant circumcision. Firstly the serious complication rates vary depending on where the procedure is performed and by whom. Secondly, reported 'complications' such as, but not limited to, vomiting, prolonged inability to urinate and disruption to breastfeeding are notoriously under reported. As well and importantly, methods of gauging infant physical and psychological pain and distress levels are continuously being refined & are, as we can all imagine, difficult. Thirdly, just for interest sake, many studies report mean healing time for infants as around 10 days.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on July 1, 2011 at 10:15pm

Adult suffering which can be mitigated by the warmth of human comfort; the knowledge that time passes, and with it, pain; and by conscious understanding of the health necessity for that pain, of course is the only choice.

And a great deal of Vicodin, or something similar.  That stuff was freaking awesome, when I had Mono, 4 or 5 years back.  I imagine that dosing him up for a few days will help things significantly.  That's another thing that you can't do, in the case of a baby.

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