I think one of the things that we far too often overlook in this country is that fact that genital mutilation of newborn boys is common practice, if not standard. Why isn't there more of a cry against this? Do the benefits of circumcision (if any, and I don't see any valid argument that there are any) outweigh the cost and mutilation of a boy?

Of course circumcision isn't the only genital mutilation in the world, but it's the only type in practice in the United States. Female genital mutilation is just as barbaric, if not more so. Americans, and Europeans in general, ban female genital mutilation of babies, but why the hypocrisy in not doing the same for males?

Tags: Christianity, God, Judaism, circumcision, clitoral, covenant, genital, mutilation

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This is such an emotional issue.  It touches a nerve in many people.  There is a lot of passion about it.

 

I'm not going back to reread the entire thread.

Here are some breast cancer statistics from the centers for disease control:

Not counting some kinds of skin cancer, breast cancer in the United States is—

  • The most common cancer in women, no matter your race or ethnicity.
  • The most common cause of death from cancer among Hispanic women.
  • The second most common cause of death from cancer among white, black, Asian/Pacific Islander, and American Indian/Alaska Native women.

For more information, visit Cancer Among Women.

In 2010 (the most recent year numbers are available)—

  • 206,966 women and 2,039 men in the United States were diagnosed with breast cancer.*†

Breast cancer is a horrible disease.  It affects  100 out of 100,000 women.

If we did a preventive mastectomy on all young women, the rate would be cut drastically.  Probably not zero, but much lower.  Extreme....   but so is breast cancer.

 

I would not advocate that.  The risk is too high, the cost to individual body autonomy is too much, the cost to personal self esteem is to high, it's too much to ask.

 

To me, the circumcision issue is like that too.  For each parent, it depends on how much they value the personal body integrity of their baby boy.  If they don't value their baby's body integrity, then it's not a big deal.  If they do, then it is.  Circumcision of an infant may not be nearly as extreme as prophylactic mastectomy, but it is a permanent change in a boy's anatomy.

 

Terry, I don't know if the being around for millions of years argument works.  You can say the same about wisdom teeth and appendix.    For some aspects of human anatomy, nature is not perfect.  Even so, I don't consider circumcision as perfecting the infant boy, or the man.

 

This link only works about half the time, if that much, but if you can get it to play, I think they do make a valid point.  I tried to find another link but could not.

 

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6966989/the-real-reason-youre-cir...

The fact that the prepuce is common to almost all mammals, male and female, and has been for millions of years does add weight to the notion of its utility. This is especially true considering the male genitals are the instrument of reproduction and hence the evolutionary process. Besides, the functions of the foreskin are obvious to anyone who seriously considers the subject, and they have been written about for thousands of years.

For your information, the appendix has a known immunological function wikipedia and wisdom teeth present no problem in races that have not been subject to poor diet.

 prepuce?

I didn't know there was an option when my sons were born 50 years ago. It wasn't even presented as an option. I didn't even ask if there were options or what the justification was for the procedures. 

As I understand it now, it was to differentiate god's accepted men, all others were "other". All these years and it is still practiced! and for what reason? I saw a film of a rabbi biting off the foreskin and almost vomited. How could any person, man or woman, bite off a piece of tissue of a newborn? How could any person take such an action unless religion dictated it. Of course Hitchens had a lot to say about it. In this clip, starting at about 3:00 Hitchens has his say  

I think my parents didn't know there was an option either, when they allowed a doctor to do it to me 70 years ago, and my brothers as late as 50 years ago.  The mormon church has no requirement, but it was generally practiced as a religious thing by members in those days, if I remember correctly.

I think we would be better off without it, and would have preferred it not have been done to me, but have no strong feelings about it.

LOOK  CHILDREN,

I AM DAMN GLAD THAT IN 1934, MY SUMMA CUM LAUDE HARVARD GRAD FATHER DID NOT KNOW, OR PERHAPS, CARE IF IT WAS AN OPTION OR NOT!

AND ANY KID OF MINE IS GOING TO GET CUT!

PERIOD!  END OF STORY!

Neil, when you write, "LOOK CHILDREN" to whom are you addressing? 

ANYONE PHYSICALLY YOUNG THAN I AND I WAS BORN ON DEC., 26, 1934

AS WELL AS THOSE WHO LOGIC, KNOWLEDGE RATIONAL THOUGHT AND/OR WHOSE CRITICAL  THINKING SKILLS NEED IMPROVEMENT..

ONLY AS SOME SEEM TO NOT BE ABLE TO NOT HANDLE BLUNT HONESTY, I SHALL CEASE USING IT. 

Did any comment I made cause you to include me when you wrote, 

"AS WELL AS THOSE WHO LOGIC, KNOWLEDGE RATIONAL THOUGHT AND/OR WHOSE CRITICAL  THINKING SKILLS NEED IMPROVEMENT.."

If so, I would appreciate a direct statement to me, or to whomever you include in your statement. Such a broad brush is suspect of not being worthy of attention. 

NO YOUNG LADY, YOU CAME NO WHERE CLOSE!

THE GUY WHO STARTED THIS THREAD JUMPED ON ME FOR NO VALID REASON AND SO I REACTED. 

I GUESS BEING A MACHO MALE WHO IS CONSTANTLY (DUE WHERE FINANCES FORCE ME TO LIVE) IS PUTTING HIS PHYSICAL WELL BEING AND LIFE ON THE LINE TO STOP ASSAULTS ON OTHERS, DOES NOT HELP MY INTERNET PRESENCE.,  THEN BEING A PARATROOPER (ONCE ONE ALWAYS ONE) A FORMER DEEP SEA DIVER AND A BOUNCER (AMONG MANY OTHER PROFESSIONS) DOES NOT ADD TO MY GENTLENESS EITHER..

Neil, let's back up a minute. First of all, typing in all capital letters is called "flaming" and it is considered a bullying technique in internet communication. It is fine to use it, but it is just rude to assault everyone with this procedure. 

Second. Your birthdate has no correlation with whether one acts as a child or an adult. Immature attitudes reveal themselves in words chosen and positions taken. If you want me to respond to you as an adult, you have to offer me a reason to do so. 

Third, I like honesty and use it more than I should. However, to give a blanket bluntly honest statement without offering anyone a clue about what you rant about is the behavior of a spoiled brat or a sophomoric adolescent. So, be honest, be clear, be specific, be concrete about your complaint and I, and I assume we, will respond in a mentally healthy, mature way. 

Fourth, your comments come across to me as someone with whom I do not want to have a conversation. I feel bullied, personally, and had to ask if I were the one to whom you addressed your vitriolic comments. I have a tough skin and can take honest criticism. Many of the people on this string are intelligent and thoughtful people and some of them have challenged me on my thinking. With discussion, clarification, exploration, many times I have very happily agreed that I made a poor judgement. Other times I have been able to convince others that I have a point. 

This is no a war zone and if you make it one, I will block you from my mail.  


FYI ALL, NOT ONLY IS NO ONE IS FORCING ANYONE TO READ ONE WORD OF WHAT I SAY.

NO ONE IS EVEN ASKING YOU TO READ MY POSTS

SO IF YOU DO, IT IS YOUR PROBLEM IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT I SAY!

YOU MADE THE CHOICE TO READ IT. DUH!

TIME FOR A LESSON IN LOGIC

Neil, let's back up a minute. First of all, typing in all capital letters is called "flaming" and it is considered a bullying technique in Internet communication.

FIRST: YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO PICK THIS FIGHT

SECOND: IN MY VIEW YOU HAVE NOW PLACED YOURSELF IN THE ILLOGICAL, IRRATIONAL AND THE FOLLOW THE LEMMINGS CLASS

THIRD: I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO INFORM ANYONE AS OLD AS YOU ARE THAT FOR MANY MANY YEARS, BEFORE THE INTERNET, ALL ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS WERE IN ALL CAPS!

AND AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER, FOR A FEW YEARS ON THE INTERNET, NO ONE CARED IF ALL CAPS WERE USED OF NOT. THEN ONE PERSON DECIDES HE, OR SHE, DID NOT LIKE ALL CAPS AND STARTED THIS B.S. ABOUT THEM BEING SOMEHOW BAD. AND OF COURSE ALL THE SHEEP OF THE WORLD JUST FOLLOWED ALONG!

(KIND OF LIKE J.C. AND HIS FLOCK)

FORTH. SOME OF WE OLDER PEOPLE USE ALL CAPS AS THEY ARE EASIER FOR US TO READ!

AGAIN, NO ONE FORCES YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE, TO READ WHAT I POST!

It is fine to use it, but it is just rude to assault everyone with this procedure.

NO. IT IS NOT RUDE TO THE TRULY LOGICAL AND RATIONAL.

Second. Your birthdate has no correlation with whether one acts as a child or an adult.

IF YOU HAD READ WITH A HIGHER DEGREE OF COMPREHENSION, YOU WOULD KNOW I NEVER SAID IT DID!

Immature attitudes reveal themselves in words chosen and positions taken. If you want me to respond to you as an adult, you have to offer me a reason to do so.

YOU MEAN LIKE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT ALL CAPS?

AS I HAVE RECEIVED TOTALLY UNSOLICITED PRAISE FROM BOTH EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS FOR MY HONESTY / TRUTHFULNESS, KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM, USE OF LOGIC, HIGH INTELLIGENCE. WILLINGNESS TO PROVEN WRONG, OPENNESS, ABILITY TO CLEARLY COMMUNICATE MY VIEWS, ETC. ETC.

AND AS HAVE SERVED MY COUNTY LONGER THAN MOST, GIVEN MORE BLOOD THAN MOST, SAVED MORE LIVES THAN MOST, RECEIVED MORE AWARDS FOR DOING GOOD THINGS THAN MOST, HELPED MORE OTHERS ATHAN MOST AND AS I HAVE STOPPED MORE CRIMINALS FROM COMPLETING THEIR ASSAULTS ON OTHERS THAN HAVE NEARLY ANY OTHERS NOT IN NON-LAW ENFORCEMENT, DO YOU REALLY THINK I CARE IF YOU THINK I AM AN ADULT?
 
Third, I like honesty

REALLY? THEN YOU SHOULD LOVE ME AS THERE ARE MANY WHO KNOW ME WELL WHO WILL ATTEST TO MY BEING ONE OF, IF NOT THE SINGLE MOST HONEST PERSON THEY HAVE EVER KNOWN. (AND SOME OF THOSE WHO WILL SO ATTEST HAVE KNOWN ME SINCE 1948)

and use it more than I should.

IN MY VIEW, NO ONE USES HONESTY MORE THAN THEY SHOULD

However, to give a blanket bluntly honest statement without offering anyone a clue about what you rant about is the behavior of a spoiled brat or a sophomoric adolescent. So, be honest, be clear, be specific, be concrete about your complaint and I, and I assume we, will respond in a mentally healthy, mature way.

AGAIN, NO ONE FORCED, OR EVEN ASKED YOU (OR ANYONE ELSE) TO READ A SINGLE THING OF WHAT I SAID.

SO IF YOU MAKE THE CHOICE TO READ MY POSTS, DEAL WITH IT!

Fourth, your comments come across to me as someone with whom I do not want to have a conversation.

THEN DO NOT HAVE ONE, NO ONE IS TWISTING YOUR ARM TO DO SO!

I feel bullied, personally,

THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD GROW UP AND LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD.

and had to ask if I were the one to whom you addressed your vitriolic comments.

SAYING "CHILDREN" IS "VITRIOLIC"? WOW! HAVE YOU LED A VERY SHELTERED LIFE.

I have a tough skin

REALLY? IT IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT DEMONSTRATED


and can take honest criticism.

YEA RIGHT

Many of the people on this string are intelligent and thoughtful people and some of them have challenged me on my thinking. With discussion, clarification, exploration, many times I have very happily agreed that I made a poor judgement. Other times I have been able to convince others that I have a point.

GOOD ON THEM, AND YOU.

This is no a war zone and if you make it one,

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO GOT ALL PUSHED OUT OF SHAPE OVER LITTLE THINGS

I will block you from my mail.

WHAT EVER,

IT WOULD BE YOUR LOSS! AS ANYONE WHO CARES TO CAN PLAINLY SEE I'VE ALREADY POSTED BOTH MORE USEFUL FACTS AND INFORMATION, THAN, I WILL WAGER, HAVE MANY HAVE AFTER THEIR BEING HERE FOR YEARS.  

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