"11:00 PM had my first bout of nausea; Rx took care of it. I feel wonderful. Absolutely no pain, I can't finish a sentence or remember words so Cary, Laura and Laurie did their best to understand what I am trying to convey. I usually get enough…"
 |
The World's Largest Coalition of Nontheists and Nontheist Communities!
circular cause
Suppose someone comes to your door and tells you God created humanity.
So you ask, who created God?
We know that one, humanity created God.
So we have a circular causation.
Anything ... wrong with that ????
I like that idea, it's like imagining all of spacetime as a smooth compact 4-dimensional manifold, so there is no "before" the Big Bang and no First Cause.
Just creation creating creation, forever.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Humble Pie on -
This reminds me a little of my favorite response to the cosmological argument:
Everything that exists has a beginning.
God has no beginning.
Therefore, God does not exist.
-
Permalink Reply by Luara on
-
Everything that exists has a beginning.
You or anyone would have a hard time proving that I think!
How about space and time, how about the laws of physics? Did they have a beginning?
I read a SF story once about some plans for a time machine that appeared mysteriously. So a time machine was made. Then someone traveled to a time before the time machine was made, and left the plans for the time machine in the past ...
Spacetimes with timelike loops, where you can travel around the loop, always in the direction of increasing time, are often ruled out because of this kind of problem.
But cause might come from outside of spacetime somehow.
-
Permalink Reply by Humble Pie on
-
Of course. It's an absolutely ridiculous premise. But it's the same first premise that the cosmological argument uses. We all know that the cosmological argument is bunk. But if it weren't, this wouldn't be either. It's sort of a way to show a theist how silly that particular argument really is.
-
Permalink Reply by Luara on
-
Yes, when someone like William Lane Craig talks about cosmology, any physics gremlins* around will be facepalming in a big way.
There are spacetimes that are solutions to Einstein's equations, that have closed timelike curves. Such as the Goedel solution, which describes a rotating universe. The events on a closed timelike curve evolve according to the laws of physics, but when you travel around the loop, you have to end up in the same state as when you started!
The physicist Ronald Mallett found that a closed timelike curve could be generated by a helical light beam - if the light had enough mass, I guess.
Closed timelike curves seem to be generated by rotation, but it has to be very drastic.
*physics gremlin: impish personification of the laws of physics. Only visible late at night.
-
Permalink Reply by Humble Pie on
-
*physics gremlin: What happens if you feed astronomy grad students after midnight.
CONNECT WITH ATHEIST NEXUS
Latest Activity
- Top News
- Everything
John Hutcheson posted a blog postAre the media too giddy over the Pope?
With all the media attention the on the Pope, important stories are being missed, human rights violations, Monsanto protection act, Russia march to blasphemy laws, and of the big story this week did Harry Potter vanquish dementors?See More
Ian Mason commented on Ruth Anthony-Gardner's group Hang With Friends"The medical profession seems to have improved in some areas at least. Personally I think some of that is due to the higher level of education of society as a whole. We know too much to put up with bad treatment now. I saw a documentary last year…"
Nerdlass replied to Ruth Anthony-Gardner's discussion Cicadas taste like asparagus in the group THE KNIFE & FORK"Thanks. Now I have "Glory of Love" stuck in my head. ^^;
I'm not sure if I could get used to eating bugs. It's like... if they're mudbugs or sea-bugs, that's one thing, but it's hard to imagine them tasting good…"
Nerdlass commented on Debra Stevenson's blog post Some Wiccans and their seeking approval from Christians"I converted to paganism (through wicca, but didn't stay there) from xianity. During that conversion period, I tried to reconcile the beliefs, which ultimately, I couldn't. There are some who find a way (probably used to cherry picking, so…"
Hiram replied to Hiram's discussion Epicureanism: a Secular Doctrine for Happiness"There are currently two Gardens of Epicurus: one in Chicago and one in New Jersey. Please visit if you're in the vecinity!"
Hiram commented on Maruli Marulaki's group Epicurean Atheists"There are currently two Gardens of Epicurus: one in Chicago and one in New Jersey. Please visit if you're in the vecinity!"
© 2013 Atheist Nexus. All rights reserved. Admin: Richard Haynes.
