Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Matthew Shafer-Skelton on June 28, 2011 at 9:06am

And when your child lies to you for your own good you will be totally okay with that? If you allow that it is okay for you to lie for someones own good, how can you argue that its not okay for your child, or your friends, or your husband, or say, the federal government to lie for your own good? What if people in a relationship disagree about what is good for themselves or each other? It isn't really the parents job to be the good guy, its their job to brainwash their child to accept societal norms, or counter culture norms in some cases, since a parent may pick their community and it may be separate from the mainstream culture.

 

I consider you somewhat naive if you think you can escape being the bad guy. It sounds very religious, to say that there are natural consequences to behavior. We are all atheists here no? There are consequences imposed by society to get people to conform to societies opinions of right and wrong. Whether its parents who are the police, or peers, or school or political authorities, someone is always the police. If you can fool a child into thinking that the timer has any power over them that you do not give it, as the parental authority, I consider them to be religiously manipulated. Because of the way their brain works, you have been able to create an association making the timer into an anthropomorphic object, which is identical to threatening a child with the wrath of god.

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Permalink Reply by Grace Fitzpatrick on June 28, 2011 at 10:38am

Good grief.  It's only three weeks a year and every kid knows Santa is going to give them presents anyway. The other 49 weeks a year (and even during the three before Christmas), parents are the bad guys all the time.  We are the people who make kids take a bath, get shots, do homework, clean their rooms, eat foods they don't like, etc.  If a person  happens to have a teenager, all they ever get to do is be the bad guy and constantly wrong about every subject.  Believe me, as a parent, we get plenty of bad guy time - every single freaking day.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Shafer-Skelton on June 28, 2011 at 1:16pm

If the child thought they were getting presents no matter how they behaved, than their good behavior has nothing to do with Santa. One possibility is that they like the holidays, the food, and the presents, and hanging with their cousins makes them happy, and happy people are less likely to revolt against the rule of law, which here is the parent. So telling them Santa is the one who won't give them presents if they misbehave, is irrelevant. They would feel the same as if you told them you were the one not giving them presents if they misbehaved.

Permalink Reply by Darlene on June 28, 2011 at 11:42am

Again, what I write and what you read seem to be at odds...so I'll make this brief:
I am totally okay with a few lies. We all lie, it's what holds society together. Kids are born lying, ask any parent. It's an instinct. All I care about it teaching him the proper time and way to lie.

It is not the parents job to brainwash anyone. It is the parents job to provide food, clothing, and shelter; a basic education; and the social skills (including lying) to survive in the world. I can raise a freethinking kid who can decide on his own which norms he chooses and which he rejects.

I never said I wanted to escape being the bad guy. In fact, I never said I did anything, I said that some families require different approaches than others.

Natural consequences have zero to do with religion. You don't change the oil in your car, the engine seizes: natural consequence. It's what happens after an action or inaction. If my kid keeps his room a mess and then can't find the item he wants in said mess: natural consequence. The consequence that arises naturally. No religion at all. Actually, the exact opposite of religion, because there are only reality based consequences.

I also never claimed wanted to never be a bad guy, I said that one can't always be the bad guy. (See the difference between never and always?) The time has no magical powers, and you are the naive one if you think a kid thinks it does. It just takes the personal out of the equation: it isn't the parent forcing the kid to stop, it's a neutral third party (the timer) that indicates the stopping time. That's why parents set rules, so there is advance knowledge on the kids part about what is happening. It's time to go to bed because it is eight o'clock, not because the parent is making you. Might seem subtle but it makes a huge difference to a kid.

Hope this clears things up!

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Shafer-Skelton on June 28, 2011 at 1:13pm

Brainwashing is the forceful change of a persons beliefs to another set of beliefs. Explain to me how what you do is different than brainwashing. You may be hung up on the colloquial understanding of brainwashing. Also, there is no such thing as a free thinker. You are definitely giving off religious vibes here. Humans are computers, they run on a program, DNA. Humans react to a given situation based on previous external input they received, consequences. What choice a human makes in a given situation is based on the weight assigned by evolution and experience to the various variables involved. An example:

Shots hurt, I want to avoid them as a child. After all who likes pain. But I am told that they will prevent a greater harm. If I can trust my parents, and believe them when they say this, I accept getting a shot with minimal physical coercion. If I have been given a reason not to trust my parent, whatever it may be, and depending on how strong it is, I will require more physical coercion.

 

Making a mess and therefore being unable to find something, is totally different than wanting to play video games, and being told you have to go to sleep. The natural course would be that you continue to play video games, and suffer the next day when you must wake up for school. This is a natural consequence in our closed system, a family, because school is mandatory based on a greater authority than the parent, society/government. If the timer goes off and the child doesn't stop, what exactly do you imagine the natural consequence to be? Hint: there isn't one. The timer going off means that you, the parent, are going to force them to stop, not that some impersonal force will impose a negative sanction.

 

My childhood is more recent than yours. And I know why the kid follows the timer, even if you are too old to remember. You previously established the timer as an unmoving rule. You may have used the timer in some other area, which would explain your child following the rule of the timer the first time you applied it to video games. That doesn't mean you aren't the bad guy. That means you successfully internalized the power of the timer previously. If your child did not stop the first time the timer went off, its unlikely that you just sat there and let him defy you, because he is defying you, and not the timer. Sorry. If in the specific instance of video games, he did defy you the first time, you punished him. Eventually he internalized the idea that you would not allow him to defy you in regards to the timer, and he followed the rule of the dings. The timer does not make you not the bad guy. It just means you successfully brainwashed your child, as all good parents do and should, to understand that there was a limit to his video game playing time.

 

In fact there is no neutral third party, the party is the child's eventual internal acceptance of the timer indicating that he will, with no deviation, receive a punishment for violating the rule of the timer. You were the bad guy when you established the power of the timer, as a symbol of your authority. You are now not the bad guy because there is no bad guy. Further if your child attacks the timer, he is still attacking you, and your authority, symbolically. When I burn a flag, or smash a timer, I am not blaming the flag for my oppression, I am blaming what it represents, my government.

 

Its not what you write and what I read that is at odds, its what you think, that the timer becomes the bad guy, it doesn't, and what actually happens, that there is no bad guy because your child has been brainwashed to accept that he has other things he needs to do besides play video games.

 

Hope this clears things up!

Permalink Reply by Darlene on June 28, 2011 at 2:49pm

Sorry, I couldn't reply directly to you for some reason...

Fast answers: I'm not brainwashing, there is such a thing as a freethinker.

While school may be mandatory, Homeschooling is viable option that avoids the waking up early issue. The natural consequence for not listening to the timer is not that the parent forces a stop, it's that the parent won't let the kid play the next day because trust was broken. It isn't an order, it's a negotiation agreed upon prior to playing.

Punishment doesn't work long term, according to most studies. Rewards do work. Instead of setting up a punishment for not listening to the timer, one can set up a reward for listening. There isn't a punishment, there is a lack of reward. Simple, very effective, and no brainwashing.

What you are describing is not brainwashing, it's a very simple training. People do what works, they avoid what doesn't. Reward the right thing and punishment is unnecessary. Brainwashing is, as you describe, forcing a person to change beliefs drastically. Raising a child does not require that level of force, or such a change of beliefs, although some parents can certainly do so.

Humans are not computers: humans have emotions and can learn very quickly. If you touch a hot stove and burn your fingers you learn to avoid stoves. That isn't brainwashing, that's learning. If you get a shot that hurts, but after you get ice cream of cuddles or a new toy, you learn that shots are worth the reward.

It isn't religion, it's a basic understanding of how behaviors are formed and shaped and how people learn.

Permalink Reply by Grace Fitzpatrick on June 27, 2011 at 7:16pm

My kids believe in Santa and the Tooth fairy.  I'm think they're faking it about the Easter Bunny to get candy though.  It's fun.  It's harmless.  Someday other kids will tell them "the truth" just like they did me.  I was not especially traumatized over it.  The Tooth Fairy didn't bother me at all. 

 

Santa is the spirit of giving and love.  And that is very real.  The Tooth Fairy is probably some old pagan tradition that has lived on despite changes in management (i.e. religion). Terry Pratchett said it best in Hogfather.  Hogfather (Santa) is the little lie that allows us to believe in the big lies like justice and mercy. 

 

There is so little magic and wonder in modern life.  Why not let kids have a little for a little while? It's a given kids are going to grow out of it.  I think more parents are sad when their kids quit believing in Santa than kids are sad Santa isn't an actual person.  I've known many parents to have a good cry when Santa finally left the building for good.  It's certainly a sign a child is growing up and leaving the things of childhood behind. 

 

Naturally, it is an individual choice which every parent must make for themselves.  There's no right or wrong answer here.

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Permalink Reply by Earther on June 28, 2011 at 3:26pm

What?  There's no justice, no mercy?  Run for the hills! ;)

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Permalink Reply by Grace Fitzpatrick on June 27, 2011 at 9:14pm

Yep, that would be a side effect.  Just because you celebrate Christmas doesn't mean you have to do it the christian way.    I like christmas trees and lights and everything not christian about christmas.  I even like Santa Claus and look forward to watching Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer - the first time.

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Permalink Reply by Brittany Shoots-Reinhard on July 1, 2011 at 2:28pm

Me, too!  The fun parts of Easter (the eggs, bunnies, candy, spring, etc. part) and Christmas (essentially every single thing except the nativity and being dragged to a religious service) are entirely secular.  BTW, I could go on and on about the origins (not Christian) of Easter and Christmas, but I will spare everyone :)  I save that for religious people who ask me why I still celebrate Easter and Christmas, haha.

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Permalink Reply by Earther on June 28, 2011 at 3:24pm

Dont worry about how your kids might tell others the truth, just also teach them about respect and saftey along with the truth.  I am a teacher and when kids ask me about it I say you will need to ask your parents about that.  Kids who upset other kids just need to learn how upsetting others on purpose is disrespectful.  No kid will be able to forsee what all their truths or beliefs will do to others yet if they know they are disturbing another they also need to know what to do about it.

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Permalink Reply by Monica S. on June 28, 2011 at 2:53pm

I just recommend being honest. Yes they might be ticked, or they just very well might not care. My mother and grandmother did not even tell me Santa or the Easter Bunny existed. Their reasoning was "Jesus is important so lying to a kid about imaginary beings is setting them up to not believe you"

 

They didn't know how right they were >.>

 

When I have kids, I am going to teach it as a family plus history thing. I'm not even going to try and say santa claus to my imaginary kids because I'll start laughing.

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