Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Russell Pangborn on April 26, 2012 at 12:15pm

You have to look at other countries for the liberals or the "welfare mongering, hate spewing, illogical people".  For me (speaking as a Canadian) Obama is more of a conservative.

The list of the five happiest countries in the world are:

1. Denmark
2. Finland
3. Norway
4. Netherlands
5. Canada

They all have universal health care and their children do not have the same exorbitant fees to get a higher education as you find in the U.S.

I think the "bad" image of the liberal owes more to special interest marketing in the U.S than the reality.  Just like the "bad" image of the atheist is dictated by the marketing of radical christian groups.

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Permalink Reply by A. Noni Moose on May 9, 2012 at 9:56am

They all have "universal" health care, but still have a survival rate from major diseases and surgery less than that of an american. Our health care in the USA is second to none.."free" of not. Nothing is free it is all in the massive tax rate they pay.

Also, I am not sure what "conservative" means in canada, but in america it represents a class of voter that is interested in smaller government, lower taxes, less government interference..Not Obama at all. The bad part of "conservative" here, is that they are generally also part of the "christian" coalition and want to tell people how to run their lives with bible morals. That is the part I do not identify with. There is no perfect party for a fiscally responsible atheist in america..sadly.

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Permalink Reply by Russell Pangborn on May 9, 2012 at 3:06pm

There is a lot of misinformation out there put out by the US lobby groups. I heard a debate last year at a prestigious forum between a us senator and one of our health care doctors.  A lot of facts and figures were thrown out and there was no knockout punch delivered by the senator. I had to laugh when the pharmaceutical industry was saying Canadian drugs were unsafe. Just listened to a book about the duplicity of this industry by a former Editor of New England Journal of Medicine.  There is no free enterprise there.  Just money corrupting the research process and maximizing profit. 

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Permalink Reply by jay H on May 12, 2012 at 8:09pm

The company I work for has several branches in Europe. I work a lot with my counterpart in Netherlands, and you will find the deal there no bargan. His basic income taxes are SO much higher than mine that I can buy good coverage for less than the differences. Add to that the fact that they are now charged for 'insurance' coverage above the high taxes they pay makes it no bargain.

And VAT. He comes to US on business a couple times a year and buys clothing for his family because it's a lot cheaper.

Be careful about  'happiness' scores. Attempting to cross culturally quantify a pretty much undefined attribute is not very hard science (consider too that hunter gather groups often score well on 'happiness' with NO medical care, no secondary education, no government benefits).

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Permalink Reply by Russell Pangborn on May 13, 2012 at 1:32pm

Whenever I come to the U.S as well it is always a pleasure to get the cheaper alcohol without the sin taxes and probably that goes for all my countrymen.  A few of us may bemoan the higher taxes as well like your Netherlands friend.  But no provincial or federal party here could get elected on following the American model of health care and removing those extra taxes that pay for health care. There has to be something to that.  

I'm glad you can get good coverage for yourself, but don't you worry about the people who are left out in the cold?

The odd thing is the overall per person health care costs are lower in Canada with an all inclusive system than the costs in a supposedly free enterprise system. 

I recently saw a show about a country (can't remember which one) that studied both of our systems and came up with an even better model.  So there is always room for improvement.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Simeone on April 26, 2012 at 5:14pm

The rich don’t pay their fair share. In order to calculate what’s fair we must consider the percentage one pays not the dollar amount one pays. How can you even use the word “fair” when Mitt Romney pays only 14 percent of his income in taxes and contributes far less than one percent of his income to the payroll tax fair? In comparison, many hard-working Americans who didn’t inherit a good chunk of wealth and opportunity from daddy are forced to contribute a quarter or more of their income to the federal government. Many of them are also forced to pay 6.45 percent of their income in payroll taxes. Then, when they retire, they’ll get a smaller check from Social Security than Mitt Romney will. How is that fair?

 

If you want to reduce tax credits as a way of increasing the base of taxpayers I’d be willing to consider that; however, no reform of the tax code should go through until it would guarantee that capital gains are treated as ordinary income.  

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Permalink Reply by A. Noni Moose on May 9, 2012 at 10:01am

The confusing tax code is exactly why we need to go to a fair tax. That way ALL people pay their share..including illegal immigrants who currently get away with using resources that they do not contribute to..All people buy stuff..rich people buy more than poor people.

Also, 14% of Romney's millions contributes a lot more to our "government income" than 20% of a 30K salary. Especially when you consider that most people get their tax bill back at refund time..some will get back MORE than they contributed. Sound fair.?

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Simeone on April 26, 2012 at 5:16pm

Great points Russell!

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Permalink Reply by SecularCortex13.x on April 26, 2012 at 6:13pm

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Permalink Reply by Asa Watcher on May 12, 2012 at 4:32pm

I think it depends upon where you start:

Are you a Liberal because of your atheism, or

are you an atheist because of your liberalism ?

Liberalism reenforces atheism, and atheism reenforces liberalism.

That you find yourself in the political minority here at A/N is a result of your own dissociative inconsistency:

At the beginning you say:

“I see most Liberal Democrats as a welfare mongering, hate spewing, illogical people. The party is generally filled with people with blinders on...”

and at the end:

“Thanks for listening and please don't consider this an attack on anyone that is a liberal.”

I think you are a troll.  

Defending  Rush Limbaugh on A/N is not consistent with  the acceptance of reason and measured thinking necessary to truly embrace atheism.

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Permalink Reply by jay H on May 12, 2012 at 8:25pm

I too am an atheist who is also a fiscal conservative (Republicans are NOT fiscal conservatives). I support limited government that does not spend what it does not have.

A government that neither gets in my way, nor attempts to protect me from my own stupidity.

When I was much younger I considered myself a liberal (also considered myself a god believer). But then I began to realize that while liberals talked 'freedom' (as do Repub style conservatives), all they really meant was people 'freedom' to behave in the way that they (the liberals) approved. At the same time they were all for a government who 'took care' of people while limiting peoples' options, enforced a kind of correct-think, decided it knew better than you what to do with your money, and bought off people with all sorts of government handouts that the government cannot actually afford, 'paid for' with incredible, productivity destroying debt, and hidden by a sustained policy of currency devaluation.

I'm reminded of the cartoon where one pig in the barn is saying to the other '... and best of all, the food is FREE..'

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Permalink Reply by Ted Foureagles on May 12, 2012 at 9:23pm

jay H:

Good points, but you seem not to have the same understanding of liberalism that I do.  It is not an attempt to grab and coerce, but adherance to a social contract in which a collective is valued over the individual.  I can see how that would be scarily repulsive to an individualist conservative of the Ayn Rand bent, but there's no getting around, except temporarily, the fact that we are a social species.  We thrive collectively, and suffer individualist cheaters because they too add something beyond thier selfish intent as long as they don't become too prominent.  Such conservatism has a valid place in a working society even when dogmatic adherance to its purity is locally harmful to the other individals it directly opposes.  It's a part of the cost of doing business, like the brake on a machine that does nobody direct good while siphoning off collected energy, but without which the machine would accelerate out of control.  It does seem a shame when conservatives are blind to the fact that they exist as a necessary drag on the system and instead identify with the engine, which is by definition progressive.

}}}}

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