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arguing with religionist on "opening up" to god
Here's a typical argument of religionist for "opening up" to god by an atheist:
Certainly I would never try to prove by scientific method that God is. However, if you are open to experimentation, I suggest you give God an opportunity to actually prove Himself. Here’s what I recommend: Tell him (as if you believe He’s real) that you would like for Him to prove Himself by saving you from your errors in life (sin). Say something like :” If You are there, please begin to change me to be as You would have me to be.
Of course if You are there and begin to affect me and change me from within, I will, of course, become a believer.” I suggest for the sake of the experiment that you speak sincerely
Here's my reply:
First, isn’t it interesting that your god always shows up where he can’t be objectively observed – exactly like a nonexistent entity.
Second, isn’t it interesting that he needs your “openness” or “permission” to do his wonderful works – just like a case of self-hypnosis by a true believer.
Third, in the remote possibility that your god is real maybe he can open himself to human goodness and stop burning people who don’t believe in him in hell for all eternity.
Certainly I would never try to prove by scientific method that God is. However, if you are open to experimentation, I suggest you give God an opportunity to actually prove Himself. Here’s what I recommend: Tell him (as if you believe He’s real) that you would like for Him to prove Himself by saving you from your errors in life (sin). Say something like :” If You are there, please begin to change me to be as You would have me to be.
Of course if You are there and begin to affect me and change me from within, I will, of course, become a believer.” I suggest for the sake of the experiment that you speak sincerely
Here's my reply:
First, isn’t it interesting that your god always shows up where he can’t be objectively observed – exactly like a nonexistent entity.
Second, isn’t it interesting that he needs your “openness” or “permission” to do his wonderful works – just like a case of self-hypnosis by a true believer.
Third, in the remote possibility that your god is real maybe he can open himself to human goodness and stop burning people who don’t believe in him in hell for all eternity.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Linda on -
Third, in the remote possibility that your god is real maybe he can open himself to human goodness and stop burning people who don’t believe in him in hell for all eternity.
They were all excellent points. I think this is the best point.
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Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on -
Besides interjecting something like improving oneself as "proof" that god did it and you didn't do it yourself, what a wonderfully backhanded way for that Theist to tell you you're fucked up and in need of improvement.
I mean we certainly can all use improvement in our selves, but it's this kind of condescending, insult-in-sheep's-clothing that really tops the crap sandwich that is Theistic Rhetoric.
Finally, I thought it's a sin to demand proof from god? "Blessed is he who has not seen yet still believes ... though shalt not tempt the lord thy god." But since this Theist has put it out there as fair game, I'd ask for more tangible "proof" that would be much harder than, say, self-improvement, to attribute to natural causes. E.g.;
"Dear god; If you are there, please turn this pine tree into a fruit fly before my very eyes. Better yet, let me get several more witnesses and a video camera. Ok, go."
Even then, I bet Criss Angel could turn a pine tree into a fruit fly. After all, he's made things like motorcycles and mountains disappear, right?
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Permalink Reply by UUMom on -
That's true and I'm not going to "argue" the point with you.
My take is different, though, in that the human brain is "miraculous" (sorry, the English language is limited in expressing this) in the way it works and can make you feel. The feeling of openness can make you experience something like "nirvana" - some people think that is a God-experience. I don't care as long as they don't make laws that interfere with the human experience that doesn't hurt other people. Their feelings and brain experiences are as "real" to them as mine are to me (we don't "know" how creation happened - it's all theory). I love this Ted video about the experience of a stroke victim who's a neuroanatomist who specializes in the postmortem investigation of the human brain.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone on -
I don't think we should fear this self-hypnosis method of theirs but instead analyze and expose it. Did your former atheist friend turned fundy now believe that non-believers should burn in hell? If not, maybe he's not really a fundy.
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