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Arguing politics with right wingers is like arguing with creationists

Everything they say is based on beliefs, not evidence.  They seem to have no interest in an honest discussion of the facts.  Instead they hang on to their naive ideologies like "Freedom" and "govt is incapable and corrupt".  I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but sometimes the best solution is a public solution.


For right wingers, the only solution is a capitalistic solution - everything else is "socialist".


Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions on tactics that might get these people to open thier minds just a little bit?

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I view Objectivism/Libertarianism as sort of like Communism, in that they were both conceived by intellectuals with no experience in actual government. They're based on pretty little ideals which had never been tested in the real world, before they were thrust on some unsuspecting country.

Well, that's not entirely true. We had a system similar to Libertarianism, in the late 1800's. It lead to the corporate oligarchy, company-store scam, and abuse of workers. The Libertarians apparently want to take us back to the age of the robber barons.
Actually Bill, that's sort of the endpoint of pure market fundamentalism, too. Pile up enough cash so you never have to work again (though some folks get addicted to ruthless accumulation for its own sake). Of course, it's not entirely clear that the point of Marxism is for the working class to not have to work. Your source sounds a bit confused on the issue.
I'm trying to figure out whether this high-profile gigolo (who became a billionaire thanks to the largesses of an hyperwealthy heiress) is a socialist or capitalist. Maybe a rare - and successful - breed of both. Or a Robin Hoodist.
I have no suggestions on tactics. In my experience, it is borderline impossible to breach the walls of nationalism and gun-clinging government fear that american right-wingers typically express.

Right-wingers in my country are practically Trotsky by comparision to American right-wingers.

Still, without Fox news I wouldn't laugh half as hard half as often!

I can't even think "Fair and balanced" without getting a case of the horrified giggles.
I have been on a mission to attack the "framing" of their arguments. Health care has been framed as "govt takeover" of 1/5th of the economy, and an infringement on our freedoms.

I have been trying to frame the argument differently. It is a question of morality and fiscal conservativism.

The moral frame:
"Why do you think we should let people die due to lack of an ability to pay? No other industrialized country does this"

The fiscal frame:
"Don't you care about the future economic viability of our country? Why do you want to increase our debt even more? You know that US health care costs are the highest in the world - by far, why dont' you want to control costs so we can get our budget under control?"

The results are pending.
LarryL, If you want a detailed story of how they capture the "framing" of issues just read Merchants of Doubt and see how organized, structured, funded and extensive their operation is. "They" are the right-wing, free-market, religious nuts who use the think tanks and corporate wealth to bully the press (when they don't control it or go outside Murdock's businesses) to control the message the public hears, buy off the "experts", and avoid paying taxes. It's incredibly effective. For them, healthcare is just another profitable business. They don't care how many people die due to lack of access or how many people go bankrupt trying to pay for care. It's just another way to make money. Only the insurance companies make the fortune-- it doesn't even really go to the healthcare providers as much as insurance executives... pretty pathetic.
I listened to a podcast interview with Oreskes on "Merchants". Yes, it is effective - I see the impact of this type of deception everyday in those around me. It is also alarming and very difficult to fight against. Google "How facts backfire" to get an idea of what we are up againt.
"Men must be taught as if you taught them not,
and things unknown proposed as things forgot."

- Alexander Pope
Here are two examples of redundant rightwing rhetoric:

"Let's get right to it"

"Let's have an adult conversation"

The first video illustrates this perfectly. They keep side-stepping the issues, which sounds a lot like creationists who never actually give proper, logical counterarguments.
I'm in a discussion like this with some conservative friends of mine right now.
Relevant article in WSJ by Thomas Frank, who wrote about how Republicans' were able to get poor and middle class white america to vote Republican despite their own best interets in "What's the matter with Kansas"

The Economic Crisis: Lessons Unlearned That Republicans have succee...

You can google the article title for access without a subscription to WSJ online


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