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Permalink Reply by Creature on October 19, 2008 at 4:23pm

When you have an abortion there's an increased risk of secondary infertility, but there's also a risk of that if you have a miscarriage or give birth.

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Permalink Reply by Creature on October 14, 2008 at 1:11pm

I'm glad that you brought up the child as a "consequence" BS. This is one of the things that has always bothered me. Along with the cold "just give it up for adoption" idea. I don't think that people realize that giving a baby up for adoption doesn't always guarantee a stable loving home for the child.

Take a look at the foster care system here in the US. There's always more kids than homes for the kids. The kids often times wind up floating from one house to another, one school to another unable to complete a solid school year. Not to mention some of the horror stories you hear about people fostering the kids in order to get extra money from the state, or in order to abuse them. Do we want to make this worse by adding more unwanted kids into the mix? Even if all the babies get adopted, it's only going to take away potential homes from the foster kids.

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Permalink Reply by Infinite Force on September 30, 2008 at 11:38am

An Open Letter from a Pro-Life Atheist

Source: http://www.godlessprolifers.org/library/jones1.html

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Permalink Reply by Dawn K on September 30, 2008 at 1:33pm

The writer of that letter lost me when they called me "pro-abortion".

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Permalink Reply by Chiropteran on October 1, 2008 at 5:39am

Yeah...lost me at 'dear sirs' lol.

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Permalink Reply by DemonHype on October 14, 2008 at 11:27am

Read it all. Not convinced. Sounds like the same weak arguments religious pro-lifers make, minus the "you're making Jesus cry" facet--which strangely enough, makes the arguments less compelling, since for the religious crowd the usual reasons are usually just props for the ultimate reason (God said not to). Whores and sluts get what they deserve (so this precious human life is also somehow a fitting punishment, a "consequence" of a woman's actions? and that isn't a cruel point of view, to view a child as a punishment to be inflicted upon women for some kind of percieved sluthood? and/or the idea that perhaps the torture of a back-alley abortion is a fitting punishment for a "whore"? Because as I said before, outlawing abortions won't make them go away, they'll just make the situation worse), something that hasn't yet developed can somehow feel pain even before it develops a nervous system, preventing something from developing is somehow the same as killing it, yadda yadda yadda. I'm sorry, but I haven't been convinced that an undeveloped potential human being is the same as an actual human being, and I still think that it's worse to bring a child into the world that you know already won't be wanted. I consider that to be a far crueler and more unethical action than having an abortion as early as you can. I've said it before and I'll say it again--if I got pregnant today, I'd abort tomorrow without looking back. Far better than to bear a child who can only be resented at best and hated at worst.

And I, too, was put off immediately by "pro-abortionist". What a ridiculously loaded label. I don't go around with a colorful flag that says "Wouldn't you like to have an abortion too?" and promoting abortions with big cheers. I would prefer that people make wise and informed decisions and not be unwillingly pregnant in the first place and that they make a decision early and stick with it, but I still think the decision should be in the individual's hands--that doesn't mean I'm running a campaign to ramp up the collective number of abortions! If you get pregnant and decide against an abortion, more power to you so long as you don't presume to decide for me. If someone was lobbying to force all women (perhaps all unmarried women? there'd almost have to be a qualifier on that sort of thing) to get abortions if they get pregnant, I'd be just as unconvinced and unforgiving.


And that "pro-life" crap. Why not just call us "pro-death" then--it would be just as bullshit as the "pro-abortionist" label.

And yes, I consider anti-choice an apt label for the "pro-life" crowd, because while I am not running around rooting for death or trying to increase abortions, the anti-choice crowd is actively opposing the right of another person to make a personal decision. The question comes down not to emotional strawmen like "do you or do you not agree with murdering babies?" but to "do you or do you not think that women have a right to choose whether or not to have an abortion?" It comes down to pro-choice and anti-choice.

Perhaps I'm getting too into this. Perhaps I've been awake too long, because I'm especially cranky right now. Time for sleep! *YAWN*

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Permalink Reply by Creature on October 15, 2008 at 8:00pm

First off, why does a letter about something only women can do start off with "dear sirs"?

Secondly I don't see any arguments, I just see conclusions. The author assumes that we already agree with all of his ideas. He doesn't offer any evidence. He doesn't explain his logic.

Not to mention the previously linked artcle about fetal pain that makes half of his arguments out right wrong.

And what's with this "get what you deserve" crap? Child as punishment? That's just rotten. Children are too important to be used as devices to "teach someone a lesson". This argument is malicious and has no regard for the life of the child.

Anyone else wonder what he was trying to get at with reason number 7? "Most atheists do not see anything wrong with abortions and will not give you the time of day once you mention god or one of the many "holy" books that religious people believe in."

What does that have to do with abortion? Why would an atheist try to use that in an argument geared towards other atheists?

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Permalink Reply by DemonHype on December 28, 2008 at 1:29pm

YES, thank you! There is something so vile about regarding a child as a "punishment". So it's cruel to stop the pregnancy as early as possible, but not cruel to "inflict" the kid onto an unwilling parent. A cluster of cells can feel so much more pain than a fully-formed unwanted child, after all.

What's wrong with no. 7--why would an atheist try and use it in an agrument against other atheists? Maybe this guy isn't an atheist. Believers do occasionally like to go in disguise, but quickly blow their cover due to their complete and total ignorance about the group they are trying to infiltrate. Invader Zim did a better job! :)

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Permalink Reply by Becky Garcia on December 30, 2008 at 2:46pm

It's all just the same as the religious anti-abortion rants, but worse in a sense. This person isn't just listening to their church or their religion, they are motivated by a desire to punish women.

The most frightening part:

"Justice is when you get what you deserve."

Somehow I doubt that he means "the pwecious babee diserves to be borned"!

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Permalink Reply by Hank Fox on July 5, 2009 at 10:23pm

Argh. The same technique works in duck hunting -- you hide in the bushes and make noises like a duck, and then pick off the ones who fall for the deception.

This is not the first faux-atheist I've come across. "Hey, I'm an atheist! I'm just like you! Except I believe there are mysteries that can only be explained by a divine creator!”

This statement alone gives him away:

“Most atheists do not see anything wrong with abortions and will not give you the time of day once you mention god or one of the many "holy" books that religious people believe in.”

Yeah, those evil, callous, God-hating, baby-killing atheists.

This man is a lying sack of shit.

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Permalink Reply by Chiropteran on October 15, 2008 at 11:23am

Open Letter to the Anti-choice Stance:

Abortion is a medical decision, period. You nor anyone else has the right to supersede my intrinsic right in making medical decisions concerning my body. Your religious or moral beliefs are of no consequence to me.

In pregnancy, it is the woman who assumes 100% of the physical risk. She is the one who will risk her very life in carrying a fetus to term. Women still die and are maimed due to complications in pregnancy and it is her decision alone to consent to this risk or not.

I do not have the right to step between you and your doctor in your medical decisions...as an analogy;

Let's say you go to your doctor and find you have a tumor (a clump of cells quickly dividing and multiplying) now, your doc wants to do a biopsy but I step in and declare that no matter if it's malignant or benign he (you) has to let that tumor take its natural course..because, you see, I (and my group) have a religious belief that God gave you that tumor to 'test' your faith and it would be blasphemy for any medical intervention, prayer is your only hope, live or die...we'll know it was God's will. But you protest..."you don't have that right. I could die from this and I don't believe this is God's will. My family and loved ones will also suffer...Dammit, this is my decision...How dare you!"

This analogy could go on and on...the person smoked (thus irresponsible and 'deserves' what they get) or the tumor was forcibly injected into the person (rape, incest thus, an exception to the burden of God's will) and the mental gymnastics would just multiply... but essentially, it all boils down to my previous statement; Abortion is a medical decision made between a woman and her doctor, period.

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Permalink Reply by Agki Strodon on October 18, 2008 at 7:02pm

I am pro-life if to be so is to be against abortion. I am against abortion because I am opposed to unwanted pregnancies. I'm a male and never had one (nor have I been the cause of a need for one ... that I know of ... wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I have had a couple of girlfriends and a wife who have had them. None of them became depressed or anything that the rightwingers want you to believe about the sequelae. My wife was actually forced into it by her husband of the time and when I knocked her up she was ecstatic about it.

The problem seems to be the failure of sex education and the inability of the educational system to motivate pregnancy avoidance. The fanatics of the anti-choice movement also have a history of opposition to information and implements of contraception. They have opposed vehemently every positive step toward sexual freedom even within marriage and it's all religiously motivated. I say fuck 'em!

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