Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mauviette Plagiaire on September 29, 2010 at 1:38am

Wow. Big guns in the credibility stakes, whale.to - where cranks that even HuffPo and the Examiner reject go to spin in circles.

Dr Kalokerinos -

He also believed that vaccination schemes have been used for deliberate genocide (among indigenous Australians, and in spreading HIV in Africa); and that the US government systematically planned to get rid of undesirables such as criminals by encouraging people with known heart problems to be vaccinated.

Dr. Gerhard Buchwald -

(15 February 1920 - 19 July 2009) was a German doctor and a specialist in pulmonary diseases and internal medicine and was regarded as a committed anti-immunization . Er erwarb Zusatzbezeichnungen Arzt für Naturheilverfahren, Badearzt und Arzt für Sozialmedizin. He acquired additional title of doctor of natural therapies, spa doctor and doctor of social medicine.

Wow. Can't argue with those credentials.

Don't you have any shame? Do you ever even consider verifying anything you read? Both of these guys are deranged quacks. Furthermore, they are insignificant deranged quacks that even Quackwatch doesn't acknowledge.

You are a mindless parrot and you make atheists look stupid.

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Permalink Reply by Erwin Alber on September 29, 2010 at 2:41am

Mauviette: Germany has a highly regarded tradition of natural therapies. Many young medical doctors also train as homeopaths after they have completed their medical studies. They do this because of economic necessity, as many Germans want to be diagnosed by a "proper" medical doctor, but want to be treated with homeopathics, not toxic pharmaceutical drugs. Dr med Norbert Enders is now arguably one of Germany's best known homeopaths.

Contrary to your opinion, Dr med Gerhard Buchwald is a reputable medical doctor. The Dr med designation is the equivalent of the MD in English-speaking countries. During WW2, Dr Buchwald was assistant brain surgeon and after after the war a tuberculosis specialist and lung surgeon who performed countless lung operations. He later became medical superintendent of a large clinic in Bad Steben, and then another. His credentials are impeccable. His social medicine qualification would be similar to a degree in public health in an English-speaking country.

Dr A Kalokerinos MD is also a highly respected medical doctor. To show you how wrong you got your "facts" because you don't bother checking, here is what REALLY happened during that sorry episode of medical history later referred to as "the 1976 swine flu vaccine massacre" by cynics:

"I was in America when President Ford was about to vaccinate the entire population of America, every man, woman and child, black, white and brindle against swine flu, because some idiot had told him there was going to be a massive epidemic that was going to kill millions of people. And my views received considerable publicity. In fact I ended up appearing on Catty Cosby’s television program, and I said it would be mass murder and I specifically described how people who had heart problems could drop dead. There was a man watching the programme in New York who did not like a particular gentleman by the name of Gambino. Gambino was 69 years old and a mafia boss. He thought this is a great idea. So he got someone to persuade Gambino to have his flu shot and Gambino promptly dropped dead. The heading of the newspapers went something like "Mafia flu jab conspiracy". It was fairly obvious that the person who advised Gambino knew what would happen or was hoping that Gambino would drop dead. It caused a hell of a row. But President Ford said "I’ll settle all this", and he called a special news conference and in front of the whole of America rolled up his sleeve and had his shot Now there is no doubt he did not have swine flu vaccine. They would not have given it to him, no way! But then he invited all the news media people that were there to line up and have theirs. Only one man volunteered and he was the White House press secretary, the rest refused to have it. And of course the other part of the story, which is history now, is that people started to sue or drop dead in the buildings where they had received their injections. There have been several huge settlements, I think they are still going on now, haven’t finally been settled yet. President Ford passed a special act in Congress so that you couldn’t sue the manufacturers of the vaccine, you had to sue through the government."

Here is what Dr Kalokerinos said about genocide:

"My final conclusion after forty years or more in this business is that the unofficial policy of the World Health Organisation and the unofficial policy of ‘Save the Children’s Fund and almost all those organisations is one of murder and genocide. They want to make it appear as if they are saving these kids, but in actual fact they don’t. I am talking of those at the very top. Beneath that level is another level of doctors and health workers, like myself, who don’t really understand what they are doing. But I cannot see any other possible explanation: It is murder and it is genocide."

FYI, I have met Dr Kalokerinos MD and Dr med Norbert Enders is, and Dr med Gerhard Buchwald was, a personal friend until he died last year. I stayed with him and his wife Barbara (who is also a doctor) at their house in Germany on several occcasions, while I translated Gerhard's book from German into English.

I also took him and Barbara on a sightseeing tour around New Zealand. This was in 1995, after he had lectured at the International Vaccination Symposium in Auckland, New Zealand, in his capacity of vaccine injury expert.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on September 29, 2010 at 3:06am

And of course you drop the other nutball shoe, homeopathy. Your brain is mush, Erwin. It has been infected and destroyed by the most dangerous virus known to humans: pseudoscience. Vaccines are perhaps the single greatest success story in medical science, but you reject them utterly. Too bad somebody strung an internet cable into the cave you live in.

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Permalink Reply by Erwin Alber on September 29, 2010 at 7:04am

Jason, all I did was report the fact that in Germany, on coming out of medical school, many medical doctors also train to become homeopaths, because many German people like natural healing methods. They don't become homoeopaths because they necessarily believe or have an interest in it, but simply because if they don't offer homeopathic remedies to their clients, their patients will go to a doctor who does.

Please note that I haven't said anything for or against homeopathy, so why do you start a stupid argument about it?

It is also a fact that generally, people in German-speaking countries have never subscribed to the medical claim that measles is a dangerous or even deadly disease. A while ago the German medical authorities voiced their concerns in the media over the fact that measles parties organised for their children were again gaining popularity among parents.

I was born in 1945 when children were only vaccinated against smallpox and diphtheria. Like most other children, I got measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox and it wasn't a problem. It is interesting to note that measles only became a supposedly dangerous and even deadly disease when a vaccine was developed and appeared on the market.

In Switzerland, over 500 medical doctors formed an organisation to oppose the Swiss goverment's introduction of MMR vaccination on the grounds that combining 3 live viruses in one injection was an unacceptable health risk for children. The organisation is still in existence and promotes the use of single vaccines rather than combination shots.

The people in charge of the vaccination racket would love everyone to believe that vaccines are safe and effective. If one was to be polte, one would have to say that this is a simplistic way of looking at it. If however one wants to be truthful, one would IMO have to say that it is an absolute fraud.

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Permalink Reply by Ann on September 29, 2010 at 10:43am

Erwin said: ...people in German-speaking countries have never subscribed to the medical claim that measles is a dangerous or even deadly disease.

Are you sure you don't mean German measles that is rubella? I've heard of rubella parties and chicken pox parties, but never of measles parties. Rubella and chicken pox parties kind of make sense. Both are highly infectious but rather mild diseases in children but have high rate of serious complications in adults. So it is preferable to get the immunity as a child one way or another.
Measles, on the other hand, is no joke. The disease, with high fever, rash, cough, conjuctivitis, is not only bad by itself, but is often followed by serious complications. Otitis media is the most common complication, pneumonia is also frequent (up to 10% of cases). The most feared complication is encephalitis that occurs in 1/1000 cases of measles.
In year 2000, measles was the fifth leading cause of childhood mortality worldwide, with an estimated 777 000 death (Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, 2008). In 2008, there were 164 000 measles deaths globally – nearly 450 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour (WHO).
Only reported cases counted in of course. Measles associated mortality is up to 10% in developing countries, fortunately less than 1% in western countries.
I really can't believe that mommies gather up to play Russian roulette with measles on their babies.

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Permalink Reply by Erwin Alber on September 29, 2010 at 11:46am

Hi Ann, it’s such a pleasure to have a discussion with someone on this site who sounds like a rational human being!

No, (some) German parents hold measles parties (Masern in German) but I’m sure they hold mumps and rubella parties as well. Measles are highly infectious as well and are not a problem for healthy children. As I have mentioned elsewhere, most everyone in my age group got most childhood diseases including measles when I was a child, yet I never heard of anyone suffering injury or death.

It’s indeed a very different story in Third World countries where many children do die, but that’s because they are malnourished and deficient in Vitamin A and C. They need decent food, not vaccines, which only make things worse. I’ve also heard that in some parts of Africa parents put their sick babies outside the hut to cool their fever during the night, so that they die in the chill of the African night.

In Germany (pop. 84 million) about 5 people die of measles each year. Some of these may have underlying health problems, some are bound to come from an underprivileged background and some probably die as a result of inappropriate medical treatment (e.g. fever-lowering drugs) or lack of appropriate treatment (Vitamin A and C). A German doctor remarked that a child is more likely to die from a meteor strike than from measles. I haven’t come across too many people who are worried about meteor hits and get their child to wear a special helmet. If that sounds stupid, well, so is vaccination.

The most dangerous aspect of measles (and other childhood diseases is that because many girls have now been vaccinated, they are no longer able to pass immunity on to their babies in the womb, or via the breast milk. This is why small babies now get these diseases, at a time when they are vulnerable, when before they used to get these diseases as toddlers, before they entered school, when they were not a problem.

Also, when the effects of vaccination wear off, teenagers and young adults now get what used to be childhood diseases, at a time when complications are far more likely and can indeed be dangerous.

It is IMO mothers who vaccinate their child who unwittingly play Russian Roulette with their child’s life. By the time they realise the harm they may have caused, it’s too late: they now have a vaccine-injured child to take care of. Millions of mothers wish they could turn the clock back, but with vaccination, one may only get one chance to get it right, which is IMO to completely avoid all vaccinations.

Parental and medical ignorance are far more dangerous than any threat from infectious diseases. Parents need to get and read a copy of these two books to educate themselves and to ensure appropriate health care for their children:

1. ‘How to raise a healthy child… in spite of your doctor’
by Dr Robert S Mendelsohn MD

2. ‘Raising a Vaccine Free Child’ by Wendy Lydall

Vaccination has proved a nightmare for countless parents who have to care for a vaccine-injured child who may be chronically ill with asthma, ear inflammation, allergies, eczema, ADHD or other neurological disorders and so on. By contrast, many home-birthed and breast-fed unvaccinated children have never ever seen a doctor even by when they are five years old. Which is how it should be.

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Permalink Reply by Ann on September 29, 2010 at 2:03pm

What I was trying to say, was that measles is a serious disease. The low death rates in western world during last decades are due to high rate of vaccinations with MMR. Saying that it is not a big threat nowadays is actually enjoying the consequences of the vaccine. Yes, it used to be an event of life, but often with lethal outcome. Measles is one of the big killers through history, emptying villages from children in Europe, killing fifth of the population in Hawaii in 1850-s, 40 000 people in Fiji in 1875, not to mention earlier events. It still is a big killer in developing countries.
The good thing about measles is that humans are its only host. That gives hope to wipe the virus off the planet with the help of vaccination.

Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on September 29, 2010 at 3:00pm

Erwin, you should listen to yourself. It's a litany of "probably, maybe, IMO, I think", and random wild-ass hypotheses. Science tests random wild-ass hypotheses all the time, but the information that stands looks like what Ann posts--statistical studies. Just because you never knew anybody who died from measles is meaningless. You're hopeless.

Permalink Reply by Mauviette Plagiaire on September 29, 2010 at 6:04am

Uhuh. And why are "reputable doctors" reduced to posting on whale.to? That's the only real question that interests me.

The rest of your babble is the all to familiar argument from verbosity, circular referencing and death by footnote that is the familiar weaponry in the arsenal of any conspiracist or pseudo-historian. Sorry pal, you can disguise it all you like, and I'm sure it impresses the other buffoons in your circle jerk, but here it means diddly squat. All of this gibberish you are spouting has been discredited to the point where it no longer even merits a dignified response.

You have the right to believe in frauds, confidence tricksters and delusionals. But you do not have the right for anybody here to respect your opinion. You are either an imbecile, a troll or both. The end result is however the same.

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Permalink Reply by Erwin Alber on September 29, 2010 at 7:23am

Mauviette: I don't really want to offend you, but your comment shows how clueless and ignorant you are.

The two doctors didn't post on whale.to. Dr. Kalokerinos was (as I think I've already mentioned) interviewed by Dr Kris Gaublomme MD, the editor and publisher of the 'International Vaccination Newsletter' and published by him in that newsletter. Someone who liked the interview must then have forwarded it to whale.to for posting.

There is in any case nothing wrong with whale.to. Whale.to has one of the biggest collections of anti-vaccination information. Just because the information doesn't agree with your viewpoint doesn't make it any more or any less valid. Some of the information on whale.to is accurate, while some of it may not be. The same is true for information published by the CDC and the BMJ or any other source. As far as I am concerned, nobody has a monopoly on the truth. All we can do is share viewpoints and hopefully engage in some meaningful discussion in order to maybe learn something from each other, but this is hardly possible with people like you who have only knee jerk reactions to offer.

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Permalink Reply by Mauviette Plagiaire on September 29, 2010 at 8:16am

You offend me by being a superstitious villager. You offend me by your pseudo-religious yearning for a new Dark Age ruled by witchdoctors. You offend me by being an active player in a primitivist death cult that is now achieving a serious body count from diseases that were, until you started disinforming, running at zero incidence. Most of all, you offend me with your stupidity - by having a cauterized cognitive system which renders objective information invisible and seeks that, and only that, which confirms your premeditated conclusions. You offend me by being a reality reverse engineer.

You, like Jenny McCarthy, are complicit in murder.

You do not merit any serious consideration from any being that is autonimous and sentient. You do however, along with the whole miasma of alt.everything, merit consideration as a serious danger to our species.

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Permalink Reply by Erwin Alber on September 29, 2010 at 8:57am

Okay, let’s have a go at “reverse engineering” your delightful little diatribe:

“Pro-vaxers are offensive because they are superstitious clods. They are offensive because they cling to pseudo-religious yearning for a Dark Age inhabited by nutjob doctors like Jenner and nutjob chemists like Pasteur. Vaxers are offensive because they are active players in a primitive death cult that is now achieving a serious body count from injecting defenseless babies and children with horrible poisons in spite of the fact that disease incidence of serious diseases like polio and diphtheria is virtually zero. Most of all, vaxers offend me with their stupidity - having – as a result of vaccination - a cauterized cognitive system which renders objective information invisible and seeks that, and only that, which confirms their premeditated conclusions. Vaxers are offensive because they reverse engineer reality. Vaxers are - along with vaccine manufacturers and governments - complicit in maiming and murdering children.

Completely submerged in delusion and remote-controlled by their minders, vaxers have ceased to be autonomous and sentient beings. Along with the whole miasma of organised medical malpractice, vaxers are a serious danger to the human species.”

Hmmmh – not bad! :-)

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