Altruist or Selfish

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kimon Brown on July 22, 2009 at 3:04pm

Here is his justification for traveling across the world instead of doing his good works in a more Christian country in this hemisphere.
___________________________________________________________________________
I am going to try to be pithy, but you’ve read enough of my stuff on the other forum to know that I am long-winded!

Sure there are abuses and neglect in countries with Christian backgrounds… no doubt. Yes, those babies are need care and such… but the thing is that Christian Missions are in Brazil caring for those babies too.. and Honduras, Guatemala, Columbia as well as African countries and Asian countries.

No one has said that the orphans of Brazil are without need. Quite the contrary, there is great need, but Christian missions are there caring for them. What I said was that the people of India are held captive by their gods. What I mean by this is that the reason that these situations exist in India are different that the reasons that they exist in Brazil.

Hindus are pantheistic monists. Hinduism is the state religion. Under the belief in Samsara the lot of the lives of these children is believed to be a result of bad Karma in their previous lives. This holds true for other people too. Lepers, the deaf, sick, maimed, poor and etc are believed to be suffering punishment that is because of a previous life. Therefore there is nothing in their religion, which is the state religion, which instigates relief to human suffering. Left to their Hinduism, there would be no relief because helping those who are being punished by Brahma (their impersonal, faceless, uncaring idea of reality) is considered wrong because it alleviates the punishment that they rightly deserve because of their Karma.

In South American and Central American countries, the situation exists for different reasons. There, poverty reigns because of centuries of exploitation by European countries and then decades of oppression by dictators and governments. However, the belief that human life is precious above all other life exists in the culture because of its Christian root. This creates an understanding that although there are starving orphans that the situation is wrong and needs to be alleviated.

The Hindu does not have within his religious system anything that would drive him to alleviate the suffering strictly for the purpose of alleviating suffering. In Hinduism, alleviating human suffering is counter-intuitive. In Brazil, a country with a Christian Worldview of sorts, the Christian worldview tells them that human suffering is wrong and should be alleviated although the people may lack the resources and abilities to do that.

So ultimately Steve, “Yes there is human suffering in Christian countries,” but the causes and histories of the suffering are different. There is an entire branch of theology that springs from the Latin American countries known as “Liberation Theology” that holds that it is t he responsibility of the church to do all that it can to alleviate human suffering and to cause governments to work for the same end.

So, my assessment that this is a land of dark gods who have held these people captive for years was not to paint them as savages. It was to point out that their gods of their religion teaches them that reality is an illusion manifested by the Brahman. Therefore, since there is no reality outside of the Brahman then those who suffer (as well as the rest of the universe) doesn’t really exist. Since those suffering aren’t “really real” because the only thing “really real” is the Brahman, then their suffering isn’t “really real.” If their suffering isn’t real then there is no reason to interfere with the punishment imposed by the faceless entity, the Brahman. Interfering with the suffering, in fact, will accumulate negative Karma for yourself…and who wants that.

In Christianity, however, relief of human suffering is intrinsic to our belief systems. James said, “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”

Further, James (leader of the 1st Church at Jerusalem, brother of Jesus) said,

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, " Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?”

I could go on further, but suffice it to say that it is an integral part of being a Christian to serve others and alleviate their suffering. James says that your faith is useless if you do not do so.

In contrast, Hinduism teaches that you should do nothing to interfere with the punishment deserved for the negative life that was previously lived. Doing so will accumulate more negative Karma and endanger you to suffering in the next life.

Oh yeah…. You need to do some research before some of the things that you post. Hinduism is not the world’s oldest religion. Zoroastrianism (Persia generally) is.

As far as your accusation of some sort of ruse to convert the children and other Indians over to Christianity goes…

There is no smoke and mirrors. I was explicit in my letter that the only hope that these people have is to give up the belief system that has them suffer in the way that they do. I clearly said that their only hope was Jesus Christ and that we were going to minister the Gospel to them. I was direct when I said that we are going to disciple up pastors in the area so that they will be better equipped to disciple their converts.

There is no ruse of any kind. I have outright said that we are going to spread the Gospel.

But it is not “purely and evangelical mission” as you’ve said. We will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the uncomforted and hug the leper whether they convert to Christianity or not. Our ultimate goal is to see the nation of India turn from Hinduism and embrace the only real hope that they have: Jesus Christ, but that is not to say that our relief efforts are contingent upon their conversion.

I see that you admire groups like UNICEF for their work, and rightly so as they do great humanitarian work. So let’s look at that in a fair and even light.

UNICEF is a humanitarian organization from the UN. In being a humanitarian organization, their philosophy is a humanistic one above all others. This is why they are considered a humanitarian group just as Theists are those who believe that the Theos (God) is supreme, Humanitarians believe that Humans are supreme.

So when those you call “the professionals” serve the needs of people, they are not doing it without an agenda of their own. They do it as they promote the ideals of humanism that they believe will improve the world and the lot of mankind.

When they go to Africa and teach them to use condoms in order to stop the spread of AIDS, they are operating from their own humanistic perspective. At the rudimentary level, their motivation and goal is no different than the Christian Missionary teaching them to abstain from sex. Both are trying to teach the Africa a method of living that each group believes is the “better way.”

The humanist believes that the answer to the human condition is education and understanding. So they go to places like Niger and Liberia and such and they educate people to understand.

The Christian missionary believes that the answer to the human condition is repentance from sin and surrender to Jesus Christ. Therefore they go to places like Niger and Liberia and the teach people about Jesus and encourage them to repent.

Either way, when the humanitarian or the Christian shows up with food, the hungry man doesn’t care whether their motivation is the Gospel (good news) of humanism or the Gospel of Christ. All that they know is that they were starving but that now they are fed.

So, in that sense, the motivation of the relief worker doesn’t matter to anyone except you.

So UNICEF teaches the Africans to simply use condoms and prevent AIDS. Well, they miss that their religion is an Animistic one. They worship fertility and sex. Many of them believe that it is the will of the gods for them to have as much sex with as many people as possible. Doing so increases their “piety” if you can call it that.

So UNICEF comes along with their education that AIDS is caused by a virus and that latex can keep them from spreading the virus, but they have nothing to do with telling them that their religion is driving them to a slow suicide… because, as you would agree, UNICEF shouldn’t tell them that their religion is killing them.

So UNICEF teaches them some biology, gives them a condom and then wonders why the Africans are still dying… and you blame it on the Church?!

The Church comes in and essentially says, “I know that your fathers taught you that these gods demanded that you serve them and their needs, and the truth is that these gods do demand that you serve them even if it means your death. But, I am here to tell you about a god that is above those gods and all other gods. Your gods have taught you lies, but our god teaches you truth. Your gods demand your service; our god has come to serve. Your gods lead you to death; our god leads you to life. If you will forsake your gods and turn to the only true God then He has promised to give you life and life abundantly.”

So UNICEF teaches them latex without addressing their religion which drives them to promiscuity while the Church addresses the cause of their promiscuity, yet you call UNICEF the professionals?

With all of that said, your “professionals,” as great of a work as they do, are merely a Christian Missionary who has surgically removed God from his worldview and inserted mankind. Before the Church, there were not international, interracial, cross cultural relief organizations. Us “amateurs” are the largest and oldest relief organization on the planet. Your own country has a Christian worldview thanks to Christian missionaries as imperfect as they may have been.

It is notable that organizations like the ones you have listed have all sprung from Western (Christian) nations.

Why is that? Could it possibly be because the Christian Worldview demands that we serve the needy regardless of their people-group? The humanitarian merely removes God from the business plan and then goes about doing the work…. taking care of widows and orphans… James would be proud. I love it when God uses people who claim to be nonbelievers to fulfill His work even when they refuse to acknowledge him.
________________________________________________________________________

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by beautifully barren on July 23, 2009 at 12:27am

This diartribe reminds me of a dentist I saw once. I was in great pain, crying on his examination chair and right there he proceeded to show me his list of fees for removing my pain and fixing my tooth. I paid right there and then in cash.

Of course these poor people will take anything from anyone. But why do it in the name of anything other than human goodness? Why cloak it in religion? I posit that these needy folk are desperate and religion cashes in on that fact.. just like my wonderful dentist.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Joey on July 23, 2009 at 4:42am

Just plain silly and/or insane. If I have to choose between selfish and altruistic, I'm gonna go with selfish.

I donate to causes like this all the time, I simply prefer to give it to groups that aren't going to spend the majority of my donation on bibles. I don't know if this group does or not, but I'm pretty wary of any religious charity, since an awful lot of them seem to be totally corrupt or utterly inept.

It takes a special kind of screwed up to look at people that don't have food, medicine, or clean water and think "Water purifiers? Clinics? Food distribution?! Nonsense! What these people need are bibles!"

For me, "Most of the pastors have willing hearts, but they lack Bibles and teachings of the basic orthodox doctrines. Many Hindus will readily accept Christ only to add Him to their other 300 million Gods. The burden of easing the spiritual and physical suffering of the Hindu is great indeed, but our God is even greater!" told me all I needed to hear.

Even more damning is "So UNICEF teaches them latex without addressing their religion which drives them to promiscuity while the Church addresses the cause of their promiscuity, yet you call UNICEF the professionals?"
Ah yes. Your secular aid is not welcome here. We don't want to help these people. We want converts! All your talk of "condoms" might actually help stop the spread of disease and increasing poverty. Can't have that. It cramps our style. (Which is why I said selfish. I'd bet you ANY amount of money they fully intend to tell these people condoms are of the devil. It worked so well in Africa, after all.)

For anyone that wonders why I feel such disgust for these people, google "witchcraft" and "africa".
They're just replacing one harmful belief system with another harmful belief system.

One last thing that rubbed me wrong: "There is an entire branch of theology that springs from the Latin American countries known as “Liberation Theology” that holds that it is t he responsibility of the church to do all that it can to alleviate human suffering and to cause governments to work for the same end."

You mean like trying to force a raped nine year old to have a baby and excommunicating everyone that disagreed? They're doing a bang up job of alleviating suffering.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kimon Brown on July 23, 2009 at 10:12am

Thanks for replying BB and Joey.

The more I look at these India Missions the more I am concerned.

Interesting site specifically about missionaries and India

http://christianaggression.com/

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kimon Brown on July 31, 2009 at 9:47pm

The more I learn about Missionaries the less I like what is going on, If we get out of the current mess in the Iraq and Afghanistan - India is ripe for conflict and religion will be the root of it!

http://hinduhumanrightswatch.org/images/pdfs/threat%20to%20hinduism...

http://hinduhumanrightswatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&t...

• ▶ Reply