Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kevin on February 10, 2009 at 9:13am

Thanks Guys!!! This has really helped me and my girlfriend allot, she now considers herself an agnostic theist rather than gnostic theist. Hey it's a small step in the right direction if you ask me :) just need to work on my dad now. I'm not trying to convert them but rather educate them, my dad seems really set in his old ways and it's hard to get him to understand reason. He still says "He knows man will never be able to create life" I think people just need to open themselves up to other possibilities and not just do one thing because it's what you know and grew up in. Anyway thanks again thought it's an evolutionary step it's still a big one in my books.

K.

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Permalink Reply by Goz on February 12, 2009 at 7:49am

Kevin, don't be surprised if your dad does not budge from his position...And try not to be diddipointed.It is really hard seperate people from their life long belief systems,as they provide great deal of security for the believer.
BTW, here is a beautifully done video on evolution produced by the BBC you and your friends might enjoy;

http://www.wellcometreeoflife.org/

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Permalink Reply by Ariel on February 11, 2009 at 8:42pm

1. This isn't an atheist issue to me, it's an American one. "In God We Trust" has no good reason to exist and is in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

2. I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. In fact, I would be happiest if I never had to know what religion anyone follows. If you insist on talking to me about religion, then I will present my case, but then you asked for it.

3. Why?

4. Common misconception. We did not evolve from monkeys. We share common ancestry. Most of what people think about Darwin and Evolution is wrong. Read Origin of Species and then do a quick followup on how the field has...well...evolved since then.

5. What if she's wrong? But if you want to play that game, I live my life based on an evolving set of morals that I truly believe in because I have discovered them myself. I try every day to make the world a better place for my having lived in it. If I ever meet any deity or deities, I can look it/him/her/them in the eye and know that I have lived my life as best I can.

6. I don't need anything to replace god. "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"-- Douglas Adams

7. .....Because he doesn't have a vagina?

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer W on February 12, 2009 at 7:48pm

1. For traditional sense because our founding fathers were huge secularists. In the Treaty of Tripoli in which President John Adams approved states "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion." But really who cares about monetary symbolism?? I use credit and debit cards, most of the time.

2. Is it not eroding thought in believing a clergyman/politician word for word?? It is not wrong to be critical on ANYTHING that does not make sense to you. Question Everything!

3. The chance thing is a huge myth. Winning the lotto happens by chance! Richard Dawkins makes a point that Evolution is like the long slow steady slope to the top of the cliff (the back part), while Creationism is the bottom pit to the top slope. (don't quote me word for word on that one! LOL)

4. Man and Monkey are primates. They are more of distant cousins as stated before. They have not both stopped evolving

5. It's not about who's right or wrong. My philosophy is I believe that everyone should find their own way to make sense of the world. I don't believe in peer pressure thinking (eg. Church) which you follow a someone else's "borrowed" philosophy. If you want to know more about the bible study and read it for yourself and build your own perspective. If you want to be an atheist don't be an atheist because I'm an atheist, build your own strong belief system and moral compass.

6. I don't believe in any supernatural deities. Science is the most reasonable study of life ever invented. I believe in empirical proof. I don't believe in cop-out answers.

7. I believe I saw in another thread about man creating synthetic viruses. This will be a discovery yet to come.....

Wow that was fun!!!

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Permalink Reply by Michael on April 27, 2009 at 1:32am

1.What difference will removing "In GOD We Trust" make to atheist?
I'm not American so I'll not answer this one

2.If you don't believe why try to erode the foundation of those who do? (it is what has structured society to date)
Structured society to date! Not to any good effect, that's for sure.
Here's a short history of Christianity since it first gained political power in about 400 AD...
600 years of Dark Ages
200 years of Crusades
600 years of Inquisitions
Religion lost its influence in the 19th century and remained quiet until the mid 20th century when fundamentalism raised its ugly head
The quicker we get rid of religious nonsense, the better.

3.When I look at the order of life the earth it could never have happened by chance.
I'll bet you are thinking of blind chance.
A course in probability theory would be helpful
You would discover that some things have a probability close to 1...We should be surprised if they didn't happen.

4. Why have the Monkey stopped evolving and man has continued.
This is based on the false idea that man evolved from monkeys
In fact, man and monkeys have a common ancestor.
There's your starting point, the rest is up to you

5. What if you are wrong? If you cannot prove to me then i prefer to stay with religion.
That's the beauty of atheism.
Atheists are not dogmatic
If we discover that something is wrong, we adjust our thinking to fit the facts
Religious types are dogmatic and no matter what new evidence is found they cannot and will not change their holy books to reflect that new evidence.
I may be wrong today, but eventually I'll get it right
Religion is wrong today and it will (dogmatically) remain wrong forever.

6. If you don't believe in GOD what do you believe in?
The harder it is to believe, the more evidence I require.
I'll believe that you are an honest person if you say so (because most people are)
But if you say that God speaks to you, I'll need evidence - heaps of it.

7. Why cant man create life
I wouldn't have a clue!

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Permalink Reply by Louis on April 27, 2009 at 6:06am

I will try to answer these to the best of my ability.

1.What difference will removing "In GOD We Trust" make to atheist?
To me, this wouldn't make any difference. Money in general makes me sick.

2.If you don't believe why try to erode the foundation of those who do? (it is what has structured society to date)

For me, i don't try to press my life stance on anyone, I would just like them to understand the effects of using the GOD pressure release instead of their own Individual pressure release as a means to dealing with real problems. Whether or not they listen is up to them.

3.When I look at the order of life the earth it could never have happened by chance.

It's not chance. Just small cumulative steps. A baby doesn't just grow into an adult in a day, they need years. Life needed just a little longer. lol

4. Why have the Monkey stopped evolving and man has continued.


Monkeys have stopped evolving? That's news to me. Just because we can't see evolution work like in a movie doesn't mean it has stopped. And also, humans dominate the planet. If we were wiped out, I think other sub species would have a shot at evolving faster, because the selective pressure to survive human materialistic development would stop. Not like magic, not "right before our very eyes!'' fast, but you get my point.

5. What if you are wrong? If you cannot prove to me then i prefer to stay with religion.
It's not in our nature to be subservient. When there's a leader of, lets say a country, who becomes too powerful, he/she is usually taken out by the oppressed. We don't like an individual with complete power over the group, especially if he is as spiteful and angry as a Divine. That is why I think most countries keep their people running in circles with media, and religious figures, so that they can distract them from the unquestioned power that is being taken. I don't want to live like that. Blissfully ignorant or not. Do you?

6. If you don't believe in GOD what do you believe in?
I believe in lots of things. I believe strawberry cheesecake is the best dessert. I believe that in a true match, Vegeta could kick Goku's butt on DBZ, but beliefs change. I might try some triple chocolate cake and never go back to cheesecake again. I might see a episode of DBZ were Goku beats Vegeta senseless and never have faith in his skills as a fighter. Beliefs are meant to change as you get older, smarter, and wiser. I don't believe in God anymore. I grew up.

7. Why cant man create life

But man has created life. There's a runny nosed kid being born right now. And the computer is very alive. It collects info like me and you and changes it, it can upgrade it's ''beliefs'' about it's system when it gets over being hacked so that it never happens again(with good software mind you) and even share information with it's fellow computers. And that's just mechanical. We've cloned people, created new breeds of dogs, and robotics is slowly on it's way to becoming something more than we can imagine.


I think the problem with the word life is that it makes people think singular. As if there is only one type of life, we just don't know that yet.

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Permalink Reply by Rev Hellbound Alleee on April 27, 2009 at 12:57pm

1.What difference will removing "In GOD We Trust" make to atheist?

"In God We Trust" was put on money in the 1950's to show that our government hates communists. Of course, Communism does not equal atheism.

Having "In God We Trust" on money signifies that the US is a Monotheistic country. (That means the country, as a whole, believes in one god). However, the bill of rights states that the government should be neutral on religion. The writers of these documents made that the first amendment for a reason: because the country they came from had a state religion. Not only did it mean that the state preferred one religion over another, thus discriminating against other religions, it discriminated against Jews, too. Even today we still have laws on the books in several states preventing atheists, polytheists, and all other non-Christians from holding office, testifying in court, or working for the government.

Non-Christians are part of the country, and they want the government to uphold its own laws.

2.If you don't believe why try to erode the foundation of those who do? (it is what has structured society to date)

I do not believe your statement is correct. I don't think that religion is the foundation for anything. Several religions try to say they do, but I think they're trying to take credit away from what really is the foundation of people's ethical systems. This is a belief of people who hold a control mentality. That's another discussion.

That being said, I criticize the bible, because it's terribly flawed, yet people who make laws try to use it to control my neighbors and me. People who profess to believe the bible use it to complain against people I love, and cause cultural wars that affect my life in a very direct way. Don't think that atheists don't have daily struggles directly because of people who believe, or profess to believe in, the bible.

3.When I look at the order of life the earth it could never have happened by chance.

Just because you have the immediate gratification of an answer to your question, doesn't mean those answers do not exist, or that the answers aren't forthcoming. Your argument is a classical "apology," called the "Teleological Argument." There are dozens of classical responses to this argument, and I might add that a creator of this complexity must be infinitely more complex than what it created: therefore, it's too complex to have happened by chance, so, what created the creator? And so on.
4. Why have the Monkey stopped evolving and man has continued.

Man did not evolve from monkeys. They are both equally evolved. The ape and Man both have a common ancestor. We are cousins. We are both evolving.

5. What if you are wrong? If you cannot prove to me then i prefer to stay with religion.

You are just as likely to be wrong as I am. There are thousands of religions and gods, and exponentially more ways to worship and use those religions. We are the same, but I am just a little bit more brave than you. Don't you think you are brave for rejecting so many thousands of gods and religions? You could have a terrible time ahead of you!

6. If you don't believe in GOD what do you believe in?

I believe in reason, morality, reality, and that people naturally want to do good, unless there is an aberration. I believe that we have a duty to have the burden of proof for the need to force, coerce, and control others. I believe that freedom is the default, and coercion needs a hearing. I believe that I am doing just about the best that I can, and that there is a lot I have yet to learn. I believe that I should try as hard as I can not to harm people.

7. Why cant man create life

We do. But it's really woman that creates life.

Seriously, nothing can be created out of thin air. We must use the materials that are made mostly by solar explosions. In fact, we have managed to make the rudimentary building blocks of life, am...

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Permalink Reply by MP Lockwood on April 27, 2009 at 1:42pm

Let me help a bit with a few of these.

1. Ask how she might feel if every piece of official currency said "God Does Not Exist" on it? Or perhaps "Allah is Great." Certainly its not the worst thing in our country, but it sure makes that whole separation of church and state look like a sham.

3. It is not all "just chance." It's a process that followed the laws of physics and chemistry. Instead of imagining something like all the pieces of a watch falling into place randomly, try imagining computer programs. Suppose you have, let's say, a collection of 1000 phrases from a programming language and you jumble them up, then try running all the random programs. Most of the time you'll get nothing, but it's not very hard to imagine that some simple programs may run. Suppose any output gets added to your collection. Run this experiment a few times and you are sure to get a program that simply says something like "duplicate self." It's very easy to see how your collection will very soon be filled with programs that duplicate themselves. And that's just getting things started.

4. Nothing stops evolving. The monkeys that exist now and humans shared a common ancestor, which is no longer living. Furthermore, evolution does not necessarily favor more complicated creatures, or smarter ones. There is no such thing as a creature which is "more evolved" than another.

7. Because it's rather tricky! Actually, we might see some of the first completely human-made living cells in the next decade or so. Of course, they will be imitations of existing ones, but hey, we haven't been working on this very long compared to the history of life on Earth.

I know I just answered a few, but I hope these thoughts help.

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Permalink Reply by Dre Smith on April 27, 2009 at 2:40pm

1) Removing religious influences from money would actually enforce the US Constitution, and would not subejct all persons to believe in an invisible diety. Having "In God We Trust" on the money is just as self centered as saying "In White we Trust" would be divisive.

2)Atheists do not "erode" the faith of others, we simply are tired of being bluggend the shit out of by people of faith who can never seem to keep their "private" faith from going public and being a permeable influence in society to the rest of us who want nothing to with your fairy tales in a sky daddy. You believe in a god, congratulations why should this entitle you to more socially accepted forms of bigotry?

3) That is a blatant misunderstanding of evolution. Actually go read "Origin of the Species" and realize natural adaptation to environment over periods of billions of years is not "CHANCE", no matter how much other uneducated morons who cannot grasp the concept like to tell you its "basically chance" IT'S NOT.

4) Monkies have not stopped evolving just as we have not stopped evolving. Physical appearances to species to a considerable amount of time and observable changes are not as quickly noticeable.

5) Even being a person faith still can mean you are wrong. Whose to say your "GOD" is of the Christian faith? Perhaps this "GOD" of yours is a Jew or Muslim. Maybe even a Janist or Pagan. Just because you pick a religion does not absolve you of potentially being wrong. You now simply could just have picked the wrong religion. Considering there are so many and varied, there is great chance you could be wrong. Atheists simply reject one more GOD than you do. If your a Christian you reject the muslim god, jewish god, pagan gods, etc..etc. Believers reject all other gods accpet for their own.

6) Ethics and morality. Which by the way you find seldom good examples in any holy text. Nothing will make you an atheist faster than reading the bible. Biblical morality is locked in what is written, it cannot be changed, altered, or upgraded in conciousness and most importantly cannot be reinterpreted no matter how hard you folks try to constantly reinterpret biblical text to fix current BETTER moral standards from centuries of human learning and evolution of consciousness. It is a murderous document whose morality is of that of barbarians at this time and place. Stoning to death of disobedient children, killing of entire civilizations, killing of apostates and non-believers, sanctioning the rape of women, slavery, blood sacrifices, and of course the secondary and property status of women, racism, classim, sexism. The list of atrocities of the bible is almost endless. No intelligent rational person can actually read the bible and not be repulsed.

7) Man as in mankind is going to be the assumption here. What exactly do you call artifical life and intelligence in machines? They are developed by mankind, ergo man does can and has in fact created life. On a side note, you have no proof your GOD of your specific religion created life either. You have a claim which religion has made and never proven with any evidence of any kind.

Hope that helps. I would suggest you being a "new" atheist to read more. Your going to have to be able to refute every single BS argument theists will throw at you. And they will. Now if you want to maintain your relationship with your girlfriend your going to have to walk a very fine line. However, if you are both strong enough to handle the long philosophical differences of opinion that you are going to have the better off the both of you will be. But if you can't because often times faith or lack thereof can be a dealbreaker to long lasting relationships as views of family come into play....it's best to do so before things become too involved.

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Permalink Reply by Szekularis Figyelo on April 27, 2009 at 3:16pm

5) Atheists have not only gone one step further than monotheists (who are atheist about all gods except one), but if there is a god, an atheist can at least be sure not to have committed the sin of worshipping false gods.

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Permalink Reply by Creature on April 27, 2009 at 3:26pm

1.What difference will removing "In GOD We Trust" make to atheist?

"In God We Trust" was added to the dollar in 1957 during the red scare. It was a part of the propaganda campaign during that era to prevent socialist parties in America from gaining popularity by tying religion, capitalism, and nationalism together.

It violates the establishment clause of the 1st amendment and flies in the face of anyone that thinks that religion should stay out of politics.

2.If you don't believe why try to erode the foundation of those who do? (it is what has structured society to date) Well, the trend towards equality is a secular ideal, most of the progress we have made has been due to those that are willing to do the right thing despite religion. For instance slavery, sexism, and the persecution of homosexuals are all things found in and encouraged by the bible. It's been through a divorce of these beliefs that we've been able to change our norms and create a higher standard for ourselves.

That's before we get into all of the people that have been willing to kill and die in the name of religion.

3.When I look at the order of life the earth it could never have happened by chance.
4. Why have the Monkey stopped evolving and man has continued.

I'd recommend taking a biology class, if that's out of the question there's a plethora of documentaries, books and articles discussing evolution and the current understanding of the fossil record. It seems that the person asking these questions doesn't have a clear understanding of what evolution is and the evidence we have for it.


5. What if you are wrong? If you cannot prove to me then i prefer to stay with religion.
Well, you can't prove a negative. the burden of proof lies with the person suggesting that religion is real.
Still, I'm of the opinion that a comparison of mythology to the legends of currently practiced religions seems to suggest that there's nothing new or special about these beliefs.

6. If you don't believe in GOD what do you believe in?
humanism, the natural world

7. Why cant man create life
Well, we can procreate, we've altered wolves into a variety of breeds of dog, we've cloned animals, and we're working on lab grown organs.

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Permalink Reply by Jeremy on April 27, 2009 at 3:32pm

Just get her to read "the god delusion".

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