9/11, nutjobs, selective blog editing and Clarence

This has reached a point of ludicrousness that is on par with the worst nutjobs I have ever encountered. However, it is not something I feel can be ignored nor dismissed as a troll, because it is disseminating bad, even harmful, information; dressing it up with fraudulent academic credibility; and now slandering individuals that could be identified.

I am all for the right of lunatics to speak freely. I will even fight for that right, even if it is not in my best interests. But I am not for the right of lunatics to freely spout bullshit, and then silence any kind of dissent to their lunacy. And where lunatics stop being amusing is when they start accusing identifiable individuals of being accessories to conspiracy to murder, as in the case of accusing former employees of the Ace Elevator company of smuggling a 100 tonnes of "nano-thermite" into the WTC and painting the buildings core load bearing structure with it prior to the buildings being brought down by hijacked planes [*].

Now most of us enjoy the odd lunatic a la David Mabus / Dennis Markuze, where everyone gathers around, pokes him/her with some sticks, has a laugh and moves on. That's OK, we know they are lunatics, there is no ambiguity. The situation is markedly different when it is one of our own, and the lunacy they spout does stand a chance of being taken seriously by the less critical amongst us. There is also the serious issue of what does it do to AtheistNexus' credibility as it is seen by the outside world ? I certainly do not want to be associated with these kinds of voodoo merchants, nor would I want anything to do with a site that encourages them.

You will not be allowed further opportunities to cast dispersions on my dime, Mister. -- Alex Donovan being told in Clarence-speak his commentary is now prohibited

The original thread is here -

http://atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/richard-gage-a-credentialed

Due to the the thread being edited selectively, and the possibility of it being deleted permanently as well, I have archived what could be saved in the attached - 20090605_clarence_911.zip

I am posting it here because clarence can't manipulate it here, and it also won't fall off the topic list as quickly as from the front page - where he insisted on splattering it in the first place. Relevant issues are collated below, gathered from the discussions. The whole thread needs to be read to be believed.

[*] - For people having trouble visualising this feat, this is a typical 200 litre drum next to an average sized person -


That means ~ 500 of these were moved into the buildings occupied by ~50,000 workers, the contents liberally smeared all over the place, and nobody noticed. Oddly enough, for all the bizarre details that 911 conspiracists nitpick over of stuff found in the rubble, incinerated shells of chemical drums are never once mentioned.

These people (in the 9/11 truth movement) use the "reverse scientific method"… they determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion. -- Thomas W. Eagar

Tags: 911, and, bullshit, conspiracy, disinformation, fear, fnord, loathing, misinformation, nutjobs, More…oil, snake, witchdoctors

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A Chronological Synopsis, with verbatim commentary -

Richard Gage is an architect, he's organising a petition with other architects to prove 911 was caused by nano-thermite. He has proof and its in some video. Clarence won't answer any of my questions because of my "cookie cutter nonsense".

Then, "The U.S. Government starts offering people coupons to get discounts for upgrading their TV reception" so they can pump out mind control radiation. Why its related to the thread I don't know but apparently it is. Then Kari (not Karl, even Karl has pride) chimes in with some crap about JFK and they have a round of agreeing with each other and nodding sagely.

After more gibberish, finally Clarence produce something other than "watch the video. I am done with you" - and delivers the coup de grace, the Thermite Paper, and the immortal triumphant exclamation -

One word defeats the theocratic or dogmatic gate keeper and standard bearer. Science!

Then more gibbering, avoiding questions, "watch the video, you tire me", etc, some of it impossible to understand -

I am at work. I've said quite enough to be understood.

Bla bla it's more psychobabble from felch grogan. I'm not going to read or respond to a broken recording. NEXT CALLER.

I hope these other minds you are protecting from me benefit from sitting on their asses in front of managed news such as it is. At least here they have the benefit of learning what academic criteria should be applied to new information.

Then finally, after 12 pages of babbling, the true culprits are revealed -

Ace elevator company was doing an elevator modernization project 9 months before the 911 event. As such it is they who had complete access to the load bearing structures which were removed by explosives to cause the collapse. The properties of the load bearing steel columns could not possibly have been compromised by sooty fire and hollow fuselage of jet plane and engines to cause the pulling of the buildings at the time of the WTC collapse. Ace elevator is no longer in existence as a company.
A Bushkin was head of WTC security until right before it went down.


Clarence was doing OK up until "Richard Gage is an Architect..." bit (though I wouldn't let him anywhere near any buildings I owned). Its been a nose dive since.

There it is, the great and secret truth about 911. You can't make this stuff up. Posted here. On AtheistNexus.
On Richard Gage - Credential Questioner. [more]

These links pretty much say it all. Richard maintains http://www.ae911truth.org/ - which is many things, not least of which is a pretty grubby money making exercise -


Amongst many, many shams detailed in the links -

* Gage has produced no original evidence of his own. His evidence is direct copy-paste from the works of David Ray Griffin, Jim Hoffman and Steven Jones.

* He himself admits, that controlled demolition is clearly outside the scope of his expertise. Yet, all his evidence consists of arguments trying to prove the demolition of the 3 towers.

* As a trained architect, he doesn't seem to be able to do even basic things like differentiating between static and dynamic loads. His knowledge of chemistry is even less than that of physics.

* His roadshow consists of WTC collapse demonstrations using cardboard boxes, etc.

This is the expert on which all else is founded.
The Thermite Paper

I don't really think that changing a blog post to moderated comments only when you've been caught making outrageous and unsubstantiated claims and are unable to back any of them up when pressed is really fair. No matter. This is to follow up on a "scientific" paper that "proves" upward of a 100 tonnes of thermite (or nano-thermite, as Clarence prefers to call it) was responsible for bringing down the structures on 9/11, as cited by Clarence Dember -

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/gen.php?file=7TOCPJ.pdf (a 10 meg file)

This paper has no kind of validity amongst the mainstream scientific / academic publishing community. The only websites that reference it are active 9/11 conspiracy sites. This is purely to shed light on the precise nature of this paper so that readers that have seen this reference are aware that its not what you could exactly call kosher.

The Thermite Paper - de-bullshitified.

Some interesting notes about Bentham Open, the publishers of The Open Chemical Physics Journal, and sole publishers of the thermite paper. No other journals want to have anything to do with it.

* Bentham Open are a fee based journal. As in you pay them to get your paper published. They are a strictly for-profit organisation. All other considerations are secondary. As papers essentially buy space, there is less (most likely no) discrimination as to the actual content.

* You get to select who your peers are for the review process. They don't seem to be particularly fussy. The reviewers details are not available to the public, effectively removing much of the scrutiny publication in recognised journals is subject to. Questions that challenge the validity of the peer review process have been known to have been forwarded to the authors. This is an unpardonable offense.

* They have zero track record as a journal in scholarly / scientific / academic publishing.

* They cite Google as one of their journal indexing services - which is kind of stupid. Google is a search engine that indexes everything.

Some of the many concerns are raised here and here.

My favourite quote I have to admit while wading through all this -

Finding "thermite" traces in the WTC rubble is kind of like finding water in the ocean.
Comments regarding the thermite paper

Very good Clarence. But isn't this the kind of fact checking you should do before posting ?

As for your citation - The Open Chemical Physics Journal is the scientific equivalent of Wikipedia (no offense to the latter). It is where you go when your paper has been rejected by every other professional journal. The article you cite was so unbiased and universally well received, that it caused the editor of the Journal to resign (of course it was probably because of pressure from the conspiracy, this in itself generating a whole new blogging crap-fest in itself amongst the tin-foil hat brigade).

Back to thermite -

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center... The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures.

Forgetting about the fact that planes and buildings contain lots of iron and aluminium, it could also be from fused common office furniture and soft drink cans, but hey, lets not ruin the party. Lets say it is thermite - what that tells us is its not nano-thermite. Go back to your research Clarence. I'm not going to make it easy for you and tell you what nano-thermite is.

Whoever Niels H. Harrit is, the one thing that is fairly certain is he's a no-name. Like Richard Gage himself, I would expect he too is unhappy about the absense of accolades of his genius that he surely deserves from his peers and is shooting for his own 15 minutes of fame by jumping on the 911 bandwagon. The only links related to Harrit are from conspiracy loon sites. I don't want to hear shit from you that the science journal world is rejecting him because of controversy or "daring to speak the truth". I, and the other practicing scientists here, will take that as a personal insult. Unlike the 911 loons, we have professional judgement, and popular opinion is entirely irrelevant. Harrit hasn't been published because he makes extrapolations from insignificant data that have zero justification. Unlike you, I actually downloaded the entire 10 meg pdf and read it - to say it makes a few leaps of faith is being polite. Iron/aluminium slag does not prove anything other than it was very hot in there. Contrary to the loony toons, conventional fires can melt metal, as seen in the recent Australian bushfires. The artifial kerosene fulled fires inside the 911 buildings would have been far, far more intense. Harrit claims it would take a 100 tonnes of thermite to do what he claims - yet is strangely silent about exactly how this could have been moved into the buildings, let alone applied strategically to the load bearing structures. In short, Harrit is yet another loon and there are reasons why the science community ignores him.

One thing that is definite is that conspiracy theorists have learned a trick from journalists the world over. Adding the term nano- to a headline is a sure attention grabber. So back to your "research" Clarence and tell me when you find out what nano-thermite actually is.

I can't put all of this any better than this person -

It is not an "is" type question. Nano means small. Thermite or better, thermitic means high heat in a chemical reaction.

P.T. Barnum is probably getting as much of a laugh out of this so-called scientist as anyone. You know, the Danish guy selling this BS story and people actually buying into it.

Using terms like "nano-thermite" pretty much guarantees that the typically under-educated, unscientific and unformed public who wants desperately to believe that GW Bush and friends had something to do with the WTC crashing to the ground can grasp at "nano-thermitic" -- it sounds so impressive doesn't it -- and have the needed "scientific" proof that 9/11 was an inside job.

It all depends on how gullible people are, since the Dane provides all the buzzwords needed to turn an otherwise obvious fireball that will result when very hot aluminum hits water, or concrete (a well known problem) causes an explosion. The DOE knows about this, and some who have fiddled around with liquid aluminum and let it come in contact with other materials have found out, it's VERY hot (thermitic) and very dangerous.

Now, the airliners were mostly aluminum, the skin of the WTC had lots of aluminum, the airliners had large cannisters of oxigen (for the oxygen masks) things were hot (due to the burning fuel) and the tower was unstable (due to the crash taking out parts of the structure).

The apparent explosion seen as the towers began to collapse was no doubt the mixture of the oxygen tank failing, letting out hundreds of liters of oxygen, mixed with very hot, if not liquified aluminum, coming in contact with water (and there was plenty of water in the tower) and concrete or other materials (like natural stone of all sorts on floors, walls, you know, like marble and granite).

Also, after the towers came down, the metal was torched to break up the large metal beams and structural members, so no doubt there was liquified metal there too, coming in contact with water, concrete, etc., as the torched areas "dripped" molten metal, I mean, c'mon, is this Danish scientist for real?

Wake up America, 9/11 was the result of islamic terrorists, not GW Bush, or some insane idea that someone in the GW administration wanted to bring down the WTC. How absurd.

But it does appeal to those in the lunatic fringe doesn't it.</>
More on the Thermite Paper

Joey: [Thermite]...wouldn't it be absolutely everywhere?

I mentoned this quote I found that nailed it -

Finding "thermite" traces in the WTC rubble is kind of like finding water in the ocean.

Chemistry lesson for Clarence: How is thermite typically manufactured ? I was tempting him to explain this to me and wedge his boot even deeper in his mouth, but he has avoided doind so. Thermites are made by subjecting metal to extreme temperature in oxygen starved environments. The heat would be most intense at the centre of the fires that caused the collapses. The centres would have already reacted with all available free oxygen, thus creating an optimum environment for thermite evaporation/precipitation. Pretty boring huh ? Not like secretely smuggling in a 100 tonnes of the stuff and painting all of the structural backbone with it.

It's sort of tempting to see how much Bentham charges to publish papers and see just how crazy a paper we can get in there before they refuse it.

The starting rate is ~ US$1500. I'd love to see the paper trail for who paid for it.

===

On Marie-Paule Pileni, editor-in-chief of The Open Chemical Physics Journal at the time of publication -

The hole just gets deeper. Marie-Paule Pileni, the Bentham / Open Chemical Physics Journal editor-in-chief who resigned over the article, interviewed by Denmark's Videnskab [Google translate].

Not quite what the nutjobs blogging about it are saying - they are full of all sorts of theories claiming conflict of interest and pressures from from the CIA and her professional circles. The reality, as usual, is far more banal.

The first she ever heard about the thermite article was when Videnskab emailed her about it. Her response was very brief and succinct - "I resign as the editor in chief". There was no pressure from any kind of conspiracy, or shadowy agents business and government. Erratic, but understandable translation from Danish, her response to a follow up phone call -

"They have printed the article without my authorization else, so when you wrote to me, I did not mean that the article was published. I can not accept, and I have written to Bentham, that I withdraw myself from all activities with them, "
[...]
"I was really unsure about them in advance because I had repeatedly asked for information about the magazine without hearing from them. Now I see that it is because it is a bad magazine, "says Marie-Paule Pileni and continues:

"I have two colleagues who agreed to publish an article that never has been quoted anywhere. If nobody reads it, it is bad magazine, and there is no need for it", reads the harsh verdict.

The professor says that she a few years ago were invited to be editor of the journal, which would open new opportunities for new researchers, and because she supports the idea of open journals in which articles are accessible to all, she said yes.

"It is important to let people try to succeed, but we must not be allowed to all, and this is something decidedly rubbish. I try to be a serious researcher, and I do not want my name associated with this kind, "ends Marie-Paule Pileni.


Bad translation, but still easier than understanding most of Clarence's rants.

It is curious as others involved with Bentham editorial have also stated that they have been told that the role doesn't actually involve reading any of the material if they don't want to - they are being remunerated simply for the use of their names.

From the same article, it is also noted that Nils O. Andersen, Niels Harrit's professional supervisor, also withdrew from any relationship with Bentham editorial. Though he did not specifically cite the Thermite paper, he did say his reasons were due to dissatisfaction with the Bentham peer review and editorial process.

===

On Niels H. Harrit, principal author of the thermite paper

This guy doesn't seem to have much of a track record as a scholar as such - the only hits you get searching are conspiracy ones. In many ways he reminds me of a chemist's equivalent of Steve Gibson [1][2]- competent enough to get by, but also a shameless self-promoter and self-aggrandiser. No shortage of him whoring himself around the nutjob interview circuit, like Alex Jones (who has terrible trouble pronouncing "thermite").

The transcript of his original Danish interview really leaves you with that WTF ? feeling -

Ten tonnes, possibly 100 tonnes, in three buildings?
And these substances are not normally found in such buildings?
No. These materials are extremely advanced.
How do you place such material in a skyscraper, on all the floors?
How you would get it in?
- Yes.
If I had to transport it in those quantities I would use pallets.
Get a truck and move it in on pallets.
Why hasn't this been discovered earlier?
- By whom?
The caretakers, for example.
If you are moving 10 to 100 tonnes of nano-thermite around, and placing it on all the floors. I am just surprised no-one noticed.
As a journalist, you should address that question to the company
responsible for security at the WTC.
So you are in no doubt the material was present?
You cannot fudge this kind of science.
We have found it. Unreacted thermite.
Ace Elevators

There have been many criticisms levelled at the elevator system at the WTC and the company responsible for them, Ace Elevators - but none quite as disgusting as those by the fringes of the 911 nutjob set, and Clarence has officially declared himself to be one. They possibly still exist in New Jersey, but I won't give their details - they've had enough grief. The accounts about Ace Elevators aren't very encouraging - they seem to be more like the Keystone Cops than hardened terrorists. There is very little to give anyone faith that they could accomplish the thermite theory undetected.

And herein lies the most disgusting aspect of all this sick fantasising - by accusing Ace Elevators, Clarence is creating links between this attrocity and real people - ordinary folks with families. Do any of the conspiracist assholes stop to think for a minute about the potential for genuine violent vigilantes out there making the connection wanting to get an eye for an eye ? No. They don't think of this. They just don't think. They fantasise, they pick at scabs, they regurgitate every last trivial detail in perverse contexts we can't even begin to imagine. There is a point where this diseased thinking stops being a game and becomes potential for more insane violence.

So Clarence, if you are going to present this crap here as "fact" - and you have, cut the apologetics that you were only "trying to get comments so I and others could learn what was thought about the information" - then you need to know that you will be held accountable for those "facts". Don't weasel your way out of it. You are promoting toxic garbage that quite possibly could stick in the minds of people who are also not as critical as they should be. You are promoting a diseased meme. These types of poisonous conspiracy delusions can and do lead to harm. By disseminating them, you are an accessory to the actions of diseased thinkers like Timothy McVeigh and most recently, Scott Schroeder. Why don't you meditate on that for a while ?
Go serve your country as I have, not with this propaganda you spew but 4.5 years military service with an honorable discharge to my credit mr felch grogan.
Ringdingdingdingdingdingding!
Oh holy shit. When they said "thermite" I assumed they meant a higher grade version that would be less common in a building/airplane. Mg/SiO2 or something. I was willing to grant them that much slack. If I'd known they actually meant "Thermite kids stir up in the back yard.", I'd have likely been laughing too hard to say anything at all.
Especially since an evil conspiracy would've likely had someone present that knew chemistry well enough to say "You know, instead of hauling a hundred tons of rust and aluminum around, why not just use something that burns hotter?"

Also, the iron oxide/aluminum ratio, if I remember the ratios right, would've meant it was about 26 tons of aluminum to 74 tons of iron....So there should've been an unexplainable 74 ton lump of pure iron slag somewhere.

Sadly, this has gone down the "These specific people got away with murder!" road. Down which some crazy bastard wanting to stand out from his fellow crazy bastards may eventually go and kill someone.
Naming companies as part of the conspiracy is just painting their workers as targets.
Still you can't convince some people of the harm of conspiracy theories.

Excellent job blowing this silly nonsense out of the water, felch.
I have no further need to discuss anything with Clarence. The fact that he felt so threatened by my commentary that he needed to censor me, speaks for itself. He's just a theist...the only difference is that his 'god' is the 'god of conspiracy.'
And I repeat my assertion that conspiracy theorists are pissing on the graves of those who died at the WTC. It's the moral equivalent of mooning a funeral just so you can show off the new 'I'm a fecking moron' tattoo on your ass.

Ah, your proud of that tatoo you got eh. Got some soap for that toilet mouth Alex?
I have to say, I've disagreed loudly with Alex on things. I still respect him.
I can't really say the same for you, Clarence.
I'm sure many others feel the same way.

Edited to add: That's why I'll disagree with Alex from time to time in the future, I'm sure.
I just plan to mock you, Clarence.
It's pointless to disagree with someone that's totally detatched from reality and evidence.
Jeremy: I never once suggested silencing Clarence. OTOH, I do vehemently object to Clarence silencing others.

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