honestly this whole thing is kinda new to me and i'm just now trying to figure out wat i believe.... i dont have answers to her questions maybe you guys can help me

excuse the dialogue i'm from the caribbean so we talk a lil different


Friend :so you believe that science is why we are all here now?

Kevin : i dont think "god" has anything to do with it

Kevin : who created him "god"

Friend : so science came about how

Friend : from a spec of organism?

Friend : If GOD is everything and the Almighty what made you think that someone or something created him

Friend : if miracles are'nt proof enough for you dont you want to believe that our lives have a greater meaning and purpose and that we dont just rotten after we die and thats it?

Friend : is science responsible for you still being alive while ppl you grew up with in clinic is now dead?

Kevin : so he jus is no one created him right? why cant it b like that 4 us? it's nice to believe that after we die there is another something but know one knows...i'm alive and they r dead because i dont have it as bad as they did

Kevin : why would your god take his time to create something on the 10th of april and on the 11th the mother stick it in the oven or in a bag and send it over a cliff

Friend : because god created us with the power to make our own choices and our own decisions......i respect your new found belief but i do not agree with it and unfortunately i do not have all the answers for you....but the good thing is i dont need to...i just believe.

Kevin : and i do agree with the fact that we must believe in something other than ourself

Friend : at least u believe that

Friend : did u ever believe there was a god

Kevin : i used to then that belief just slowly went away over the yrs

Friend : y

Kevin : just could not bring myself to believe

Kevin : and saying i got robbed by gun point but the man did not shoot because d gun jam.. and then saying it was an act of god.... to be is crap

Kevin : it just simply jam thats it

Kevin : keston survived his accident because god was looking out for him? no it was because the conditions were not right for it to be fatal

Friend : or maybe god wanted him to survive to see his son come into this world

Kevin : she was not preg then

Friend : she did not have to

Friend : she became and now he is here

Kevin : she got so because he was home for 2 months and was doing nothing else but bulling

Friend : lol

Kevin : and many other men die while their wife/girl still preg

Friend : kevin i am sorry that your life has not gone exactly how you would have liked it...and i am sorry if you have prayed for things that has not come to past....but things dont always happen when and how we would like..... so then y are you giving up on classes? there must be something scientific that can help you pass...if science created this world we live in from the begining of time surely

Friend : it cud help you pass a measly exam

Kevin : is not science it's me i just cant do it... i get distracted to easilly problems with focusing and stuff

Friend : science has created cures for that....you should know

Kevin : but doh tell me if i pray it would help... cause it have ppl who praying for help out of a country that have no food or at war or both and ppl die everyday

Kevin : i eh no scientist i would not know that
Friend : because my luv GOD knows what is best for us..... and you dont have to be a scientist....its called Ginko Baloba food for the brain

Kevin : maybe ppl who have no food knows humility and knows god and because of their few years of suffering and being thankful for little they can now spend an eternity in peace after death

Kevin : wat about the ones who never had the chance to know about
god

Kevin : someone who prays and studies and passes their exams comes out better than the guy who just studied and pass?

Friend : i never said that........its just that the guy who prayed knew he could not only depend on his smarts knew he needed help by having faith.....maybe the other guy just did not need to..

Friend : different people different circumstances different stories different lifestlyes....we are all different with our own cross to bear

Kevin : exactly my point u dont need to believe in a god to do great things

Kevin : just believe that u can

Friend : well you believe that you can and do your exam

Friend : dont give up

Kevin : lol well i dont believe i can

Friend : you are contradicting yourself

Kevin : i believe some ppl are just smart and some just cant get there

Friend : well some ppl believe in GOD some in science what do you believe in Kevin? nothing it seems...

Friend : your statement said

Friend : u dont need to believe in a god to do great things

Friend : if you so strongly believe in that statemnet then stand by it..

Friend : say i believe in myself and i believe that i can do great
things.......

Friend : but remember that god also gave you that ability

Friend : to believe in yourself
Kevin : u believe he gave u that ability

Kevin : i believe we are who we are

Kevin : he says he is who he is and u accept that

Kevin : i believe that god helps those who helps themselves

Friend : i accept that man could not have been created by man.....who then created science or which comes first for you man or science... i believe that there must have been a force greater than you and me and science.....i believe that everything i went through in life was to teach me a lesson was to make me who i am today....i believe there is a god...whether his name is god, jesus allah or whatever

Friend : other names there are i dont know but i believe he is more powerful than anything that man could have ever created...

Friend : kevin all i can say to you now love is to be prepared for whatever the outcome of how you lived your life is whether it is greatness, sorrow, or nothing.....just make up your mind to accept it...

Friend : i am in no position to judge or say that you believe in bullshit i am only here to live my life and stand by my belief.... i must say though that i feel somewhat disappointed but that feeling will soon pass its just that i have never known anyone so close to me who did not believe in god it is a new feeling for me...so forgive me if i came across as being judgemental.


any thoughts?

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I'm sorry to say your friend doesn't quite have a clue what she's talking about and you can tell that from her tendency to personify science and placing it in a dichotomy against the deity she believes in, as if science were a living, conscious entity. Science is a discipline, a practice, a method through which we manage to acquire knowledge of the universe we live in. Science did not create anything, we created science to explain how the universe's constants have allowed and still allow for particular conditions on our planet and for very different conditions in other corners of this galaxy and beyond. What she does is dumbing down the whole issue so that it fits in her limited view of things. She takes for granted that her deity must exist, and almost speaks of science as if it were a lesser god in a pantheon. Furthermore, she basically admitted that her whole belief is based on her need to believe that her life is some inherent purpose, it stems from her terror of being finite. That's something she shares with most, if not all, believers. Acknowledging some finiteness would mean having to work hard to give one's own life some acquired, rather than inborn, sense, and that's far too scary a perspective for too many people.
Your friend says things like "science created" in ways that leads me to believe your friend does not understand what is science. Next time, clear that up right away. Science is a mode of study, it is not responsible for creating the world, just figuring it out.
Hmm, it was quite a long conversation and i couldn't get through it all - but i picked up a lot on one or two common remarks your friend was making. Firstly, she continually says that science is the 'reason' for things - but she is saying it as if science is one 'thing' when it isn't, science is the 'study' of 'how' things occur, science isn't 'how' things occur, many people seem to make this mistake. Your friend needs to realise that by science, we mean the study of how certain things work.

Also, your friend is talking about god as if it is matter of fact, and, although she clearly believes it is - she should be able to accept that it is a belief and stop talking in such a patroninsing manner - i hate when people do that, talk about what they believe as if it is fact rather than belief. These very same people will criticise science for not always being accurate, even though in science - people usually work with facts and not beliefs, this really annoys me.

Science is what we use in order to investigate this world, it is not what your friend seems to think it is, which is an all too common belief in my view.

Why does your friend think acceptable to believe in something so extraordinary (god) with no evidence - and not only that, but to actually ask YOU why you think something should have created it? Basically, your friend is telling you that you are silly to think that the creator would need a creator, when in reality - she is the one being silly to make such an assertion. Why WOULDN'T it have needed to have come from somewhere? She says BECAUSE HE IS the creator? Okay, can she provide the evidence of this? In anything beyond a claim i mean - anything beyond faith or belief? No, she won't be able to and the reason that she holds such ridiculous beliefs is because she very clearly has no understanding of science, thus has no idea how to think logically and thinks it entirely acceptable to believe such ludicrously absurd dogma.
Is it just me, or does god having a 'plan' for everyone kind of negate the whole free will deal?

Not that I actually concede free will, but the religious always seem to use it as an excuse.
i never understood praying. If god has a plan, then the people praying must be trying to change his mind. What a task that must be for god; all those prayers to sift through, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
And isn't god supposed to be immutable anyways? At least the calvinists stayed coherent on that.
He would need millions of administrative assistants (I think that's what angels do) to sort and classify all of those prayers. Then once those are sorted you'd have to classify that pile in order of importance, and of course you have new prayers coming in every moment. Plus god has to worry about making sure the earth revolves around the sun and all that other busy work. So...really its not that prayers aren't answered, it just the time your prayer comes up to bat you've been dead for at least 50 years.

Heaven is really just a huge bureaucracy.
in catholicism, you never prey god. You pray the saints. Angels have nothing to do with it.
At one point you friend says that you believe in "nothing." You need to tell her what you do believe in, which I'm sure is a lot, it's just that god isn't one of those things you believe in. For example, you can believe in doing the right thing, you can believe in honor, truth, justice, peace, friendship, love, etc., etc. Make sure she understands that you aren't in a "dark place" because you don't want something supernatural to take over your life.

She mentions science a lot, I'm not sure exactly what point she was trying to make, but a lot of theists like to think that atheists worship science and Charles Darwin. Or they think we worship Satan or hate god. It's silly, they don't get that we don't believe in the supernatural... nor do we consider Darwin, or Dawkins for that matter, as a god or patron saint of atheism. Tell her that science doesn't have all the answers, and any scientist worth his or her salt will tell you that. BUT science has extended the average life span of a person, cured diseases & created medicine, to name a few. Tell her science is important, and that we need to keep going in our pursuit to learn more about our world.

Tell her you are more than capable of being happy without religion being a part of your life, and that you can do good things without a god. You can also talk to her about why morality has nothing to do with religion.
Isaac Asimov explained how we as humans believe too little in coincidence. Everything that cannot be explained requires the involvement of a sentient being. This is nothing new, but I believe it isn't the right way to view things. I believe in progressive rather than archaic thought whether atheistic or theistic in nature. Your friend seems to only have a grasp on her own unoriginal beliefs and refuses to acknowledge any other. "i am in no position to judge or say that you believe in bullshit i am only here to live my life and stand by my belief". She could have omitted the majority of that and just said: "you believe in bullshit" because that is what she was really saying, she just tried to dress it up nicely. As an atheist I definitely understand the prejudice towards us by society and even our friends and family. It is useless to try to challenge your friend's beliefs, just as it would be useless for her to challenge yours, so my only recommendation is to find another topic of discussion and avoid discussing belief in god altogether because you will never reach an agreement until she opens her mind to other possibilities which is something that she must do on her own.
Well, your discussion is maybe on a quite low level, sorry for those words. There are many places where you indeed could have challenged her properly and just left her speechless :) I have a feeling neither she nor you actually know a lot about this topic, so no wonder.

But in reality, there is very little to be said to her which will change her mind. Leave her speechless yes, because she cannot answer the question, but she will not change her mind about it.

You should first of all take a clear stance that you for example don't believe in faith and prayers. Explain to her things like Determinism. I think you really need to read upon this topic if it's something you want to discuss more. Like others said, she displays typical circular logic behavior, very common for all theists. I think you got good tips from the others too.
thanks guys for all your input... like i said before i'm very new to the whole coming out in what i believe, so it's hard for me to build a case against her, but your comments have helped me.
This is why I usually avoid this topic, she only asked because she saw me join the group on facebook, o well i guess the secrets out :)

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