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When does a zygote become a human being?
Colorado for equal rights has a ballot to give person hood to zygotes. Should a zygote be given person-hood? If a zygote or embryo was a person, it would be unethical to abort them under any condition. If he had been conceived by rape, incest, forced implantation, or forced insemination abortion would be murder. Likewise, if the embryo were to prove lethal to the mother, one might be able to transplant the embryo, but not abort it.
Also, what about the 16 million zygotes / persons that are conceived, but do not implant properly and are flushed down the toilet or thrown in the trash with the maxipad? With research, many of these could be recovered and reimplanted. Boosting birthrates four fold. Special maxipads for capturing and storing embryos...
On a more practical side, when should a new life be given person hood status? Should a new born be given a 'test' or 'physical' and if he fails, infanticide? Or, even the body farm? Should babies that would require lifetime drug regimens, need dozens of surgeries, be incapable of understanding the world around him, and / or be allowed to live with significant pain?
I personally do want to hang around if I get Alzheimer's, dementia, extreme poor health, chronic pain, or become a ward of the state. I certainly would not want to face those conditions from birth. I would advocate infanticide for any infant who could not lead a normal life.
If something like this were to become law, would it be enforced, the child ripped from their mother? An option known to the mother before childbirth? Perhaps with counseling regarding the consequences. Would the mother only have the option of life if she had enough money?
Also, what about the 16 million zygotes / persons that are conceived, but do not implant properly and are flushed down the toilet or thrown in the trash with the maxipad? With research, many of these could be recovered and reimplanted. Boosting birthrates four fold. Special maxipads for capturing and storing embryos...
On a more practical side, when should a new life be given person hood status? Should a new born be given a 'test' or 'physical' and if he fails, infanticide? Or, even the body farm? Should babies that would require lifetime drug regimens, need dozens of surgeries, be incapable of understanding the world around him, and / or be allowed to live with significant pain?
I personally do want to hang around if I get Alzheimer's, dementia, extreme poor health, chronic pain, or become a ward of the state. I certainly would not want to face those conditions from birth. I would advocate infanticide for any infant who could not lead a normal life.
If something like this were to become law, would it be enforced, the child ripped from their mother? An option known to the mother before childbirth? Perhaps with counseling regarding the consequences. Would the mother only have the option of life if she had enough money?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by LeaT on -
Or for the matter, if the birth is an accident after rape, where I feel if I were in such a situation, I would make an abortion immediately. How do you explain to the child who the father was, and how can you live with the constant memory by living with the child of the rapist? Or if you live in an abusive relationship, the environment is neither safe for the child or yourself in such cases.
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Permalink Reply by Фелч Гроган on -
I think you stop being a zygote on your 18th birthday, and termination up until that point is morally and ethically guilt free. Remember that kids, next time you're asked to help with the dishes or mow the lawn..
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Permalink Reply by Little Name Atheist on -
Finally, a definitive answer to the abortion question!
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Permalink Reply by Lorry Fach-Pedersen on -
I disagree that giving an embryo personhood automatically makes abortion murder, as that ignores the bodily domain of the woman carrying it. Nevertheless, defining personhood too soon would open a huge can of worms. If I miscarry, then do we need to perform an investigation to see what caused the death of this person, whether it was intentional, who is responsible, etc.? Can that even be determined in all cases? Should we hold a funeral?
I'm going to ignore the last half of your post where it gets eugenicsy and rambly, since I'm not really sure what you're going on about.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Winkler on -
Thank you for your kind understatement. Ramble, Ramble, Ramble....
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Permalink Reply by Undo on -
Let's let the Old Testament answer this for us, shall we? Sorry for the long post but I think it fitting to respond to the RR with their own bullsh*t.
This is copied from Skeptics Annotated Bible(On of my favorite references).
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23
The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16
God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)
Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14
God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:2
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Permalink Reply by LeaT on
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But OT is not the right place to quote I think... Most Christians know of OT but they don't see it as important as NT, since NT is about Jesus. OT was originally written for the Jews.
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Permalink Reply by Anath on -
That's one of the places they cherry pick support for their argument though. Good to have a few alternate verses there, as argument against cherry picking.
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Permalink Reply by Shawn on -
Well, according to jewish law an embryo/fetus/zygote/anything in a womb is not considered alive till it has taken its first breath outside of the mother. And since christianity is an offspring of Judaism, logically they would have the same ruling, sadly, Christianity is pretty stupid.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Winkler on
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Shawn said "...Christianity is pretty stupid" Unless you are Pat Robertson or the like then you can make lots of money off of Christianity. How many used car salesmen have become preachers?
A tax should be levied to support the raising of children and mothers who would otherwise get an abortion should be levied on anti-abortionists. While I prefer abortion on demand, an assault on the pocketbook of the otherwise brainless might get a change of their opinion.
If a woman went into a Catholic hospital and said "give me an abortion or the Eucharist gets it", what would they do?
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Permalink Reply by Tedster on -
I tend to agree. If the Catholic hospital does it, it is more likely out of legal reasons, or if there is greater autonomy within the hospital.
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Permalink Reply by Anath on
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I think it might be to the Catholics in the hospital. Remembering PZ's cracker saga, they don't take the crackers lightly! It is "their savior" after all...
Though I doubt they'd perform abortion on any threat, even defiling Jesus. :P
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