Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by funk Q on October 26, 2008 at 9:33pm

I support the circumstantial which I call relative. My view is in the real world each deed should be evaluated in relation to its causes and consequences. Absolutes may be fine in abstract thought (religion and philosophy) but I think each ethical issue should be assessed relative to its causes and its effects.

With absolutes there is no room for variance. All or Nothing are the two options. So if in old testament law a person was found guilty by circumstantial evidence or of only partial involvement they could not be stoned half to death or stoned using pebbles, it had to be the absolute punishment. Which is why we don't use the bible as the basis of our laws or much else.

I would like to have a third option for morality and ethics - randomness. But I think I am alone there. ;)

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Permalink Reply by Creature on October 27, 2008 at 3:30pm

Other options are always welcome for discussion. :)

"Absolute" and "circumstantial" are just the two I've noticed. If there are others, I'd like to hear about them.

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Permalink Reply by funk Q on October 31, 2008 at 6:04am

Alright, it's in the bible but I think the story of Soloman and the baby is a good example of a random, and unexpected, solution being applied in a multiple choice situation. He could have decided for either claimant, taken the baby to be raised by another person or had it cut in two. Clever!

In situations where there is more than a heads or tails solution just a wild pick of any possible stance may be made. Random choice could include inconsistent or even incoherent, hypocritical, contingent and duplicitous ethical and moral choices.

I don't know about others, but I have fairly flexible attitudes to most moral issues - basically, if no one suffers unduly or against their will most things are fine; if it happens then it isn't ununatural. So it is difficult to pass judgement on the actions of others unless all the salient facts are known and this is infrequent with what passes as reporting.

Not having a set or rules to follow I have to chose case by case what my ethical view will be. A much bigger burden than having a reference manual with the answers provided.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on October 27, 2008 at 4:51pm

You've been reading too many comics :-)

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Permalink Reply by Dawn K on October 27, 2008 at 7:29am

I don't believe morality can be absolute in our society. That would mean it is never okay to lie, never okay to kill (even in self defense) and in the abortion example it would never be okay even if the mother's life is in danger.

I equate absolute morality with black and white thinking. Very little is all or nothing, one or the other, there are almost always "shades of grey".

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Permalink Reply by Paul on October 28, 2008 at 6:40am

I agree, morality has to evolve with the times and cope with the context, just like the law does.

Usually when laws are drafted, a great deal of effort goes into the use of carefully crafted language to dispel as much ambiguity as possible about it's scope and applicability. And look how many arguments there are about the interpretation of the law from case to case!

What chance do we have with badly drafted, badly edited and badly translated 2000 year old foreign scripture.

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Permalink Reply by Creature on October 28, 2008 at 5:37pm

The interesting thing is that this of sort thinking isn't limited to religion. Take a look at the motto of the Atheist and Agnostic Prolife League or PETA's stance on medical testing for a couple of examples.

I'm sure that people that belong to these groups probably apply relative morality to other issues, and it seems some of the Atheist Pro-lifers are willing to make some exeptions. However, it's interesting to see moral decisions carried out to the conclusions that would be logical were there no other factors involved with these issues.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on October 28, 2008 at 7:27pm

People like the clarity, certainty, and simplicity that come with dogma and simple rigid rules because it removes doubt and any requirement to think.

It's comfortable.

But useless when reality arrives:

Top 10 Moral Dilemmas

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Permalink Reply by Creature on October 28, 2008 at 8:00pm

Good point.

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Permalink Reply by Dawn K on October 28, 2008 at 8:40am

Very true and yet try to tell them that and they sing "lalalala" with fingers in their ears.

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Permalink Reply by Фелч Гроган on October 31, 2008 at 6:28am

I think you are trying to articulate "subjective" and "objective".

Objective: the Holocaust and the Inquisition were wrong.

Subjective: Simon Weisanthal and affirmative action can be questionable.

You are in grey water and the more you stir it the muddier it gets.

Absolute: I can cut my penis off right now with a razor.

Circumstantial: If I'm Charles Manson, or Jim Jones, or Heaven's Gate, I might get caught.

Your question in itself is circumstantial. The only absolute is self termination, using absolute methods.

Suitable postscript -




Visit us at http://atheistnexus.ning.com/group/cynics

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Permalink Reply by Pockets on October 31, 2008 at 12:59pm

I think that ethics and morals are a reflection of that society. I feel that there are moral absolutes, (child molestation) but by looking back into previous cultures that was perfectly normal. So would that make it absolute (I think that it should never happen) or relative because an entire culture agreed that this was acceptable behavior. Nothing is permanent, it took the Voting Rights Act in 1965 to allow all races the ability to vote. 1965....for something that if anyone today denounces they are (rightfully so) openly ridiculed with serious monetary ramifications.

From my perspective it seems that from the beginning of civilization ethics and morality are getting closer and closer to an ideal of true equality and tolerance. We have a long way to go (some cultures far more than others) but hopefully we will get there.

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